if you prick me, do I not--oh, hell, never mind.
Okay, so. I'm trying not to turn into the Trans Blogger OMG, and eventually I'll get back to my drafted posts on politics, race, and Martians, but.
Having observed the sudden degeneration of this thread at Amp's, I am trying hard to find a way to spin this conversation constructively. I wanted to put up a post outlining the various common red herrings, derails, and so on that we find in these conversations, and then brainstorm ways to counteract them.
Then I realized that's been done before, notably by Piny, multiple times even. And it is frustrating as hell considering doing it again. With a couple exceptions (the Christmas-miracle conversion in the comments at Women of Color Blog comes to mind) who are we addressing? The people already dug-in in their prejudices? Us, to better our defenses, again, when we've got our defenses up all the time anyway? I can't imagine either group hasn't heard these before, at least in the endless go-rounds in Blogsville. Either you're not listening or you've already heard too much, and either way it's exhausting.
So.
In the interests of not burning out on yet another unproductive debate, trying to convince someone who doesn't want to hear it that the patriarchy does not in fact love and cuddle trans people, I thought maybe we could do something more interesting.
We could try reminders that we're not abstract constructs. In that vein, I thought--if it's not too personal--we could talk about, well, each other. Our loved ones, those missing, those who need remembering. It may not be the Time of Year For It, but I don't care. Too many good people aren't next to us and deserve better than derision, and for a lot of us, it's a large part of why we fight instead of just getting ours and walking.
I miss my friend Charlie Rose, right now. I think we could have had a lot of good conversations that we never will.
How about you?
Having observed the sudden degeneration of this thread at Amp's, I am trying hard to find a way to spin this conversation constructively. I wanted to put up a post outlining the various common red herrings, derails, and so on that we find in these conversations, and then brainstorm ways to counteract them.
Then I realized that's been done before, notably by Piny, multiple times even. And it is frustrating as hell considering doing it again. With a couple exceptions (the Christmas-miracle conversion in the comments at Women of Color Blog comes to mind) who are we addressing? The people already dug-in in their prejudices? Us, to better our defenses, again, when we've got our defenses up all the time anyway? I can't imagine either group hasn't heard these before, at least in the endless go-rounds in Blogsville. Either you're not listening or you've already heard too much, and either way it's exhausting.
So.
In the interests of not burning out on yet another unproductive debate, trying to convince someone who doesn't want to hear it that the patriarchy does not in fact love and cuddle trans people, I thought maybe we could do something more interesting.
We could try reminders that we're not abstract constructs. In that vein, I thought--if it's not too personal--we could talk about, well, each other. Our loved ones, those missing, those who need remembering. It may not be the Time of Year For It, but I don't care. Too many good people aren't next to us and deserve better than derision, and for a lot of us, it's a large part of why we fight instead of just getting ours and walking.
I miss my friend Charlie Rose, right now. I think we could have had a lot of good conversations that we never will.
How about you?
posted by little light | 3:18 PM
8 Comments:
Yeah, I have to say, I just don't think those conversations are going any where. I was never so thankful as when dead inside started commenting, and just sort of reminded me why the thread at my place was so fucking draining. I just don't think those conversations are productive because, like you said, they've been going on for how long? And how many people actually listen and put thoughtful comments and analysis and ideas into the fold? Most people are just arguing for the sake of being right, it seems to me--a lot like how the recent ashely treatment threads are going. nobody really cares to be educated on what the disabled community is saying about it, nobody cares to dialogue back and forth to develop ideas or consider something they never thought of before--they are fighting to convince that *They* are right and not the other person, you know?
(and btw, i haven't seen the thread at amps, i'm just reflecting on the stuff I saw at twisty's, my place, and a few other places--where the analysis is that because I/we won't talk about certian things I/we must be closed minded/hypocritical baiters who are out to get poor little radfems--that's just not how or why I want to blog. The way i figure it, i'm not out to prove shit to anybody--you know? And I don't think it should be up to ANY marginalized community to prove shit to anybody. It's exhausting work, this "proving" shit, and I refuse to spend my time doing it, and I support any one elses right to not do it. bitchy me. :p)
I don't really have anything intelligent to say. But I'll just say that your comment that "the patriarchy doesn't love and cuddle trans people" is bang on... and I think that there's a lot of that in general in that brand of feminism. You know, "the patriarchy must just loooooove you!", said of transfolk, sex workers, people who make porn or smut, etc. Where as far as I can tell no one has yet shown off their sparkly "Collaborator" gold star yet.
I just wonder what they think the "loved and cuddled" get. I mean I see arguments that MTFs get male privilege, but I've never yet seen anyone even try to nail any of that down, like "Oh, so-and-so would definitely not have this job if she hadn't lived as a man for so long." It's like they know how ridiculous they're being, but can't admit it.
I like your headline a lot. And wow, thanks for reminding me that I'm not just an abstract construct! I was starting feel kind of flat and transparent.
I always feel like after I burn out on this stupid shit, I fall back to a place very much like what brownfemipower is talking about -- feeling very adamant about how marginalized communities shouldn't have to prove anything to anyone. How we ought to just be working on building connections with each other. How I have so much more I want to learn about other movements that are outside of "mainstream" white-woman-dominated feminism, their histories and ideas. And I just read and read for a while and soak things up.
Then slowly my nerves start to regenerate and eventually I see some other jerk say something totally ignorant on some larger blog somewhere. The big blogs where there's lots of cross-traffic between different sub-ideologies and sparks start to fly. Maybe I'm just too drawn in by conflict, but I find it hard not to say something, try to open someone's eyes even a bit. Heck, saltyC changed her mind after the last debacle. That kind of makes it feel worthwhile... well now that most of that stuff is over and I've decided not to give a shit anymore, it does.
I do think "trans feminism" needs to be explored more and developed. Multiple trans feminisms, even. But even though I am very much into deconstructing essentialism and all that highbrow fancy shit sometimes (you'd think I was well-read, which I'm not, I just absorb a lot) I have a feeling that "trans feminisms" will have a lot more to learn from WOC feminism, and disability-informed feminism, and working class feminism, than from certain other schools of thought. It's just hard to bite your tongue sometimes when someone says something soooo ignorant... gah.
Hey, Little Light, does my "not your goddamn dancing monkey" fit in with your here-be-monsters? I think I see the space where it does, and I'm not exactly the world's most articulate birdie at the moment.
Something about the monsters not taking to circus cages kindly ...
... if I get this coherent, I'll go blog it ...
well, first, i think that anyone from a privileged space has to step up and insist on the right of a marginalized group to say, 'i'm no proving shit to you.' e.g., we just had some war over BDSM on a male dominated lefty list and ppl kept saying "prove that BDSM doesn't cause domestic violence." "prove that there's true consent."
i was seething b/c this was from a native american who had himself said only a few months before that he, basically, didn't have shit to prove to anyone.
so, someone like that who you know is basically on the right side of justice, well you can say something. they'll get it. the rest? well, i hope they heard it and maybe a few will get it. maybe those who are cognizant of these issues re: race will finally feel it sink in. sometimes it takes awhile for it to happen.
and the reason i think it matters is b/c sometimes, it's the people who haven't taken any side who matter. i know i learned an incredible amount about disablity just from listening to entrenched arguments. sometimes, i didn't get it, but when explaining it to someone else who wasn't getting it, trying to be fair to the other point of view... well, I was, "D'oh!" and the light bulb would go on.
I actually had to see my own resistance to the argument in someone else for me to see what an ass i'd been. Sometimes, it's why these entrenched arguments work. Someone who doesn't like participating in debates nonetheless takes a side. they read along, at first identifying with the other side. But when they read the views from transfolk, the disabled, people of color and see people react with pwerful resistance, the see their own thoughts objectified, out there and realize they don't like that. they really don't agree. And then they've been persuaded.
which is why I'm utterly adamant that, when marginalized folks are getting ignored or dumped on with demands to 'prove it', then it's up to the rest of us to step up and grab our machetes and cutlass (BlackAmazon's terms) and kick some ass and take names later.
that said, I also think that, in doing the educating, we have a huge responsibility not to drown out the voices of the marginalized in our efforts to do "our job". hugely important, that one. similarly, we have to take care that it isn't just a game of sparring, who can come up with the wittiest flame.
i saw that happening in the burqagates threads when BlackAmazon identified what she calls "smug". that sense that it's only about scoring points. when the people you're appealing to errect their bulwarks to defend themselves do so by treating it as a game, you can easily get sucked into playing by those rules. that's a consequence of my privilege in that debate, because had it been about my issues, i couldn't have seen it as a game.
That's when I said, "woah" and backed off, with a woman named Veronique acknowledging that she was worried about the same. I wonder if anyone's written about this?
ramble ramble. sheesh
I just wonder what they think the "loved and cuddled" get.
dunno, but i suspect it's sitting in a remainder bin somewhere with all the "special rights" gay folks are clamoring for.
whatever happened to Veronique, anyway?
This hit me hard (reminding me of a friend who thankfully came back after disappearing for a few months, having overdosed), and was really helpful to read.
Post a Comment
<< Home