Taking Steps

Trouble ensues when you let monsters talk pretty. Reach me at takingsteps at gmail dot com!

Name:
Location: Portland, Oregon, United States

17 January 2007

public service announcement

It has come to my attention that Heart is accusing me of plagiarism, with the help of her commenters.

Now, mind you, she is doing it at her place, where I am not welcome to respond, and she has left neither a comment nor a trackback to present her position to me to my figurative face. She has levelled a fairly serious accusation at me, in other words, without telling me and in fairly explicit terms, without giving me a chance to challenge her in actual conversation--and, by the way, I caught that snide "she or he" in there, Heart, and considering that you've interacted with me many times and read the piece, you know exactly what you were doing, there. Tagging your post 'War on Women' and 'Male Terrorism' goes a little further in clarifying your intentions.

I don't really want to dignify it with a response, but I have a lot of new readers right now, and I feel like they deserve some clarification, so I'll do it here.

Now, I've never read Robin Morgan before. The poem Heart quotes is a hell of a piece of work, and in other circumstances, I'd thank her for giving me some new reading material. I will see, once I know Morgan's work, how to go about honoring her legacy to feminism.
To claim, however, that Ms. Morgan, or radical feminism, are the only place I could have gotten inspired to work with the imagery of monsters and struggle, a major theme for discussing human experience--especially that of desolation and radical Othering--for the entirety of recorded history, is patently ludicrous. To accuse me of stealing another woman's work simply because she and I shared some source material much older than either of us, regarding themes that have direct bearing on my life and experiences and which, as someone raised on a lifelong love affair with history and mythology, I have been marinating in since early childhood--themes I have worked with before, over and over--is ridiculous. We don't even use the reclamation of monsterhood in the same way. You might as well say I stole my imagery from Sesame Street--they make "monster" a positive thing, too, don't they?

Is it that frightening for you to read someone like me actually achieving something like self-acceptance, or deriving strength from having been ground into the ground and refusing to break? Are you so threatened by the idea that I might be proud of my life or that I might reject attempts to shame my deviant body that your first instinct, on reading my declaration that I refuse to roll over and die, is to denigrate, accuse, and sneak about trying to undermine it? Are you so far gone that your first reaction to someone writing about getting past hurt and trying to live life fiercely in a hostile world is to say, 'wait! I'm the only one who gets to talk about overcoming adversity! Anyone claiming to be something decent in life is just trying to steal from me!' and this doesn't worry you? Because that proves only that you didn't understand what I was writing, and further, that you've proved my point.
You can go on calling me whatever you like, but you've got a long line in front of you if you want to see me bleed. Some of the people in it even have the ovaries to say things to me directly.
Keep kicking.

And hey, thanks for driving up my hit counter.

Edited to add: Because I am being called a "liar" in regard to the first sentence of this post, I should clarify. Heart did not use the word "plagiarism." She simply claimed I was stealing the ideas of another writer without credit, which is very different, and made applauding comments when other people used the word "plagiarism." I apologize for the misunderstanding; I also should not attribute to her, for instance, the reference to me as "it," since that was done by a commenter not herself who she merely told that she "loves the way [she] think[s]"--she is not in any way, by her own affidavit, "transphobic," nor would any such inclination be involved in the substance of this dispute; I am assured Heart found my piece "moving."
Additionally, the charges have been modified to include "appropriation"--that is, a white American woman is asking that I refrain from using imagery pertaining to female-presented deities including those from a Middle Eastern, Asian and/or Pacific Islander cultural heritage (that is to say, my ancestors) as this constitutes "colonization." Additionally, goddesses with transsexual priesthoods, if they are mother-figures, are off-limits. Actually, this probably also includes the ocean, and the earth, and pretty much anything concave, for caution's sake.
Also, the literature of feminists predating the radical movement should be considered inadmissible, as well, due to having already being claimed. Further, laying any claim to my ancestry is probably gauche, as belonging is sort of like owning, which is a patriarchal sort of thing to engage in, and it would prove as such that I am really a man. I therefore freely admit I have no right whatsoever to read or reference anything related to my religious practice, ancestral culture, or favorite childhood reading material, as this may or may not be subject to the Dibs! Act of 1967, wherein they had a flag stuck in them by people who have never prayed to my gods, had their countries invaded by European powers, or bothered to study other branches of the movement they also claimed through that same statute, viz., feminism.
I also have no right to interest in feminism, because I might once have made $1.00 to the $0.75 I will be making for the rest of my life, had I had a chance to be employable during those formative childhood years.
Also, apparently I have had some surgeries I was not aware of. One of these may or may not have been the addition of someone else's stolen skin. I will take care to provide more information about those in the future.
Also, my work was apparently about erasing the work of prior generations by producing content myself, in continuity with another branch of the greater feminist movement, rather than simply quoting people I did not know about who, I'm told, would disapprove of everything I represent. With my apologies, please consider this addition to the canon transparent, then, so that prior generations are still visible and can continue to be found in bookstores and libraries and schools across this fair land.
In addition, I encourage you all to read the work of Robin Morgan, who I am assured is pretty good, and who wrote at least one poem that I have now read and enjoyed, though I have to admit I prefer Anne Sexton's, repeated in comments below. I would, but I'm not allowed to--or at least, were I to, I wouldn't be allowed to talk about it. Still, please do it in my stead.
I hope we've cleared this up and can move on to more constructive pursuits. I apologize for my errors in wording, and for my laxity in making these corrections more swiftly.

316 Comments:

Blogger belledame222 said...

Fucking WHAT?

Oh, that's it. Hey, Heart. I take back any sort of even the most half-assed vouching I made for you, in any circumstances, any place. You are completely toxic under that nauseatingly sweetie-sweet shell. All your cries of martyrdom and woundedness, but you know something?
It's really all about you. You, you, you; you're Every Woman, your suffering is Every Woman's suffering; and if anyone -else's- suffering doesn't exactly match up with yours, much less god forbid take away from your dramatically limelit tears, even for a -second,- it doesn't even make your radar. I've seen it time and time again: with antiprincess, with brownfemipower, with piny, and yep, with Arahadna and Yolanda. And, I don't care if AD -never- accepts me and my "pro-pornie" ways, if we -never- see eye to eye; on this one, at least, she is 100% correct: you took an important macro issue as well as someone -else's- pain and made it all about you; again.

and isn't it mighty white of you, all the hard hard work you've done on behalf of WomanKind, and your this, and your that.

Enough, please. Yeah, you've had a really hard life. Lots of real suffering. No doubt. So have other people. It still doesn't excuse your being a pretentious, solipsistic, noxious, gasbag. Or, above all, for your -vile- transbigotry, yes, that's right, i said BIGOTRY. Little Light is worth ten of you.

And, you know what else? In my opinion? You're still a bloody fundamentalist. You never -stopped- being a bloody fundamentalist. You just got a makeover.

Now fuck off.

17/1/07 17:54  
Blogger little light said...

Yeah, I mean, it grew organically out of things we'd been discussing. Anyone following along would see it, let alone people who actually know me and know how much those symbols have always meant to me.

That said, you're right: I owe an apology to Coleridge for paraphrasing the Rime of the Ancient Mariner.

17/1/07 18:11  
Blogger little light said...

Actually, Belle, she linked you and me, and then added Nexy as an afterthought--you can see that reflected in the comments that predate the edit.
And now she's left a comment listing all the people she can find who linked to my post, with an exhortation to commenters to go to these places and "call attention" to her theory.
Pony's already commented on Creek Running North calling me a plagiarist.

17/1/07 18:36  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

belledame222 --

Please don't let it get to you so hard. It's just high school all over again. We all know the type, the sneers and the waiting for the unworthy, properly rebuked, to grovel at their brand-name sneakers and beg to be allowed back into the inner circle.

The reject nerds eating lunch over in the biology hall brought homemade cookies, come join us?

17/1/07 18:41  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

This pisses me off SO much. If you had stolen swaths of rhetoric or several ideas from the poem, I could see that, but the idea that othered individuals would not feel like monsters at some point during their lives is ridiculous! The first thing that sprung to my mind was the Derek Walcott poem about the myth of the black minotaur raping the lily white woman. I'll see if I can find the title.

Oh, and it was incredibly rude and cowardly to do it on her site and not here. She should change her blog name to "Women Born Women's Space/The Club"

17/1/07 18:48  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

This sort of silliness is what drove me away from feminism. And that was a really good thing for me. I no longer have to hide my HST books and my other testosterone-charged influences. I can barely believe now that I was so silly that I spent years reading nothing but women writers in an attempt to conform.

Even if you were a major Robin Morgan freak...what you wrote by no means qualifies as plagiarism. Writers without influences are boring writers. It was crystal clear to me what your influences were in that piece and I didn't really connect them with Morgan.

I was too busy watching you bleed all over the words.

Outside of grad school, there's really no need to mention one's influences every time one writes something. And most of the time, I just don't care. I just want to read good, tight, emotionally involved writing. And not be bored.

And you did that exceedingly well.

Any time you expose a part of yourself like that, you are going to make yourself vulnerable. That is what makes a raw piece like that so incredibly good. And, unfortunately, there are going to be those who just can't resist grabbing a piece of your viscera to tear.

Just keep on doing what you are doing.

Buzzards circling ain't always a bad sign.

17/1/07 18:53  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Littlelight -
I am a lurker/admirer and have avoided stepping into the middle of things lately. But - I honestly wondered when reading your incredibly powerful post if you had read Susan Stryker's piece, "My Words to Victor Frankenstein Above the Chamounix - Performing Transgender Rage." I avoided commenting about the connections because I thought it might be rude or distracting when there has been a lot of queer writing that makes use of "monster" imagery and I don't know what people have read. But you are definitely not the first trans person to make political use of monster/constructed existence imagery (and I mean this in a very good way).

If anyone hasn't read this amazing (and relevant) piece, please do:
http://www.annelawrence.com/mywords.html

My favorite quote: "I want to lay claim to the dark power of my monstrous identity without using it as a weapon against others or being wounded by it myself..."

17/1/07 18:54  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Oh, and, the monster thing?

When I read it I thought not only of the things you were saying about your body and the ways it's been rejected and monster-fied but of MY body as well -- the body of a woman with disabilities, a body deemed grotesque, a body reconstructed. Not what you were talking about, no, but a lot of the images and ideas felt similar to things I've thought, and known.

LOTS of us have othered bodies in this here universe, and LOTS of us have called ourselves monsters. Monster-ness doesn't somehow belong to non-trans old-school radfems. WTF. Just W. T. F. Ew. Ew. Just ew. I just showered, but now I feel like I need another.

17/1/07 19:16  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

I suspect my friend who said something to the effect of "I don't think I would have understood that as well a year ago" was thinking of her experience as part of a disabled dancers' troupe, trin, so you're not alone.

I relate to monsterism almost entirely psychologically, in terms of being The Wrong Sort Of Woman (and The Wrong other thing, but in this context the Sort Of Woman is the most relevant point).

17/1/07 19:26  
Blogger belledame222 said...

well, and what's really fucked is, she -knows- all this; she makes reference to Morgan calling on her monstrosity on account of her -female genitals.- So, you see, it's DIFFERENT. and -that's- what "plagiarism" means.

dw3t-hthr: i appreciate that, but it's a long time coming; she is an -epic- asshole, and i've had just about my fill of it. and she's already crouching in the margins; i don't wanna be margin to her margins. or for anyone else i like to be that. i just think: enough of this bullshit, for reals.

anyway i just smacked her on my own place. i feel better now. even though i know it's just gonna provoke more passive-agressive icky-sweet martyrdom.

17/1/07 19:30  
Blogger little light said...

...actually, Trin, full disclosure, it was sort of about that. The other post I was writing when this one hit me was, among other things, about trans/disability solidarity and common ground. And a lot of what you said in that conversation, and our own conversation about blood, helped in the birthing.

17/1/07 19:38  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Ugh. What a horrible taste this all leaves in my mouth. The shreds of respect I had left for Heart, when she's playing at being understanding, diplomatic, conciliatory, all just burnt up. It's an absolutely shameful reaction to a brilliant, heartfelt, and powerful piece of writing. It's crystal clear to anyone who's not deadset against what you're saying that these are your own words, and not simply the legacy of a single poet.

Heck, I HAVE read Robin Morgan before, and read that poem, and it was not one of the first things that came to mind, although I think someone on another blog mentioned it even before Heart did. There are plenty of sources and images and powerful themes your words called up. I'm sorry, these ideas -- even these bodies, these lives -- are far, far older than a mere half-decade!

It's even more clear to those who bother to think about why your words would have provoked such baseless venom that their power led to fear and an ineffectual backlash. It would be sad if it weren't so contemptible. And sadly I doubt any apology will be forthcoming. Leopard; spots. Don't let it bother you longer than it has to; we're all with you.

17/1/07 19:39  
Blogger belledame222 said...

I hold no brief for bigots like Heart and some of her commenters and colleagues ... I see no reason to discuss theory with them (even if I knew any to discuss), to care how wonderful they may or may not be in other areas of their lives, how much they understand about racism or white supremacy or anything, really, as long as part of their discussions are on the essential humanity or right to exist of other human beings.

Bear in mind that this is the same person who recently told a woman of color--several at once, really--that she is in a position that they cannot possibly understand because she is a white woman who has had children with a black man, been partnered with a black man, and been abused by a black man; well, her and Nicole Simpson.

that didn't go over too well, i understand that. and hey! what's the best way to start healing your ouchies from getting rejected by former allies, on account of your stubbornness and self-absorption? dig in your bigoted heels even further and pick yet another fight with a whole nother group of people!

some people never learn. i swear it's been like shark-jumping season this past...while. must be the stars or something.

17/1/07 19:46  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

"The other post I was writing when this one hit me was, among other things, about trans/disability solidarity and common ground."

This is where I pledge undying love. Damn, you're awesome.

"And a lot of what you said in that conversation, and our own conversation about blood, helped in the birthing."

*faints*

:)

17/1/07 19:48  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Yeah, I know what you mean.

It's the age-old internet balance: where is the line between "refuting the slanderers" and "feeding the trolls"?

I just know the logic over there in Assholia is something like, "Look at how defensive they are, we win", and the glee in whatever pain or outrage they cause. And maybe there's that little dark glimmer of hope that someone will come crawling to them and beg forgiveness so they can be spat on more directly.

I would find the whole idea that, for the better empowerment of women, women need to be enslaved to someone else's model of the Right Kind of Woman almost funny in its irony if it wasn't a war that was being fought in the scarred battlegrounds of my own heart. The only way I've found out of that haemhorraging loop is to accept that, damnit, I am the Wrong Kind of Woman and I don't give a damn. Well, that or die, and if I die They win.

Little Light and I have been talking monsters for quite a while, y'know?

17/1/07 19:55  
Blogger belledame222 said...

I think...that she's going to be sorry she tried this one. If her goal was to draw attention away from LL (oh noes, lots of people are reading that post, a transgendered woman's voice might actually make it onto the feminist blogosphere's collective radar!) or discredit her, she may just find she's had the opposite effect.

there's been a fair amount of that sort of thing about lately, for some reason.

17/1/07 19:58  
Blogger belledame222 said...

anyway, i suspect that for her, the game is more, she gets to feel even more martyred and put-upon than before; that's how she "wins." she's more than welcome to it.

17/1/07 20:02  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

What. The. Fuck????

Bullshit. Bullshit.

That piece was *yours*, it was so obvious. As another commenter said, the idea of the monstrous pops up everywhere in arty and literature, everyone is ringing the changes on an idea that is common to many people from many backgrounds. That's what *happens*. It isn't plagiarism, it's exploring the different aspects of being a human being. (Apologies for inchoherence - I'm furious.)

And like Trin, it put into words my feelings about my body as a woman with a disability, and it's currently percolating in the back of my head and will probably inspire my own take on `monstrousness'. Thanks!

17/1/07 20:04  
Blogger little light said...

namaroopa, thanks for your candor.
I haven't heard of the Stryker piece until now, but it sounds like it's really, really up my alley, so thanks awfully for the recommendation. I'll go looking for it.
Hey, maybe I can just copy and paste it, and put my name at the top. Everyone wins!

17/1/07 20:05  
Blogger Renegade Evolution said...

I've never read morgan before, and the themes you used are themes many, many authors have played with before...but I've NEVER read one like YOURS...and being a big fan of monsters, cyborgs, Kali, and ALL kinds of wierd shit, I know that a lot of people use them as literary devices.

Take a page from my book on this one, be too shallow to care.

17/1/07 20:12  
Blogger brownfemipower said...

Um, WHAT????!?!?!?!

Ok, you know what, when I read that post, I thought immediatly of GLORIA ANZALDUA, who I know you have referenced reading before--I thought you were playing off of her ideas and expanding them into your own life and your own experiences and I thought it was totally awesome because I think gloria would have been SO behind that.

That really pisses me off that it's automatically ASSUMED that because a woman of color (Little light) is writing about "moster" that she MUST be stealing from a white woman. That she must have HEARD about the idea and gotten the idea from a white woman. That a WOMAN OF COLOR (Gloria Anzaldua) couldn't have Possibly have created a whole fucking BOOK about the worship and honoring of the monster/unknown within and developed a whole fucking strain of a movement off of the idea-- But, apparently it is only white women who are able to think of clever little ideas or be leaders in movements? And apprently it is only white women who have followers???

bullshit. absolute bullshit. And just so clever white women know--the "monster" idea far predates any 70's feminist movement--mary shelley's frankenstein being a major "feminst" text that deals with "moster"--and for fucks sake, almost every damn mythology is some how situated within a "moster" concept--read fucking frued, jung and all that crowd for fucks sake.

17/1/07 20:20  
Blogger belledame222 said...

Only white women, and only "women-born women," which was the whole point of that noxious little jab. well that and the whole blow-to-the-ego thing.

17/1/07 20:24  
Blogger belledame222 said...

oh, well, as per frankenstein, they lay claim to that too, or at least luckywhosis did, i remember--she was threatening to write something about how that was really a parable of male appropriation of womens' bodies, or some shit like that, you know. because of course Shelley was -totally- anticipating Janice Fucking Raymond, with that.

they were pulling the same crap in the Alas thread, too, some people, Furry Cat Herder, some insane convoluted crap about how radical feminists had defined "gender" in such and such a way before all those newfangled city slicker queer and trans theorists took it over. because it's all a fucking academic debate, see.

17/1/07 20:28  
Blogger Renegade Evolution said...

ok, so now I've read morgans work, the poem. Its good. Yours is not a copy.

yawn. Pass me my typical file.

17/1/07 20:29  
Blogger Sylvia said...

I have to join the general consensus that this woman has lost her fucking head on this situation. I'm not even going to pretend her attack has any basis in validity. She's doing some tasteless, classless passive-aggressive attack on you because she wants to monopolize any discourse on what transpeople say about themselves as people. She's lost her fucking head if she thinks she can co-opt something so powerful with a weaselly accusation of plagiarism.

17/1/07 20:32  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

I'm going to monstrously vomit frogs all over everything on the internet soon if I keep reading certain blogs. I better go back to reading "Orphans of Chaos" instead, which happens to be about a "monstrosity from beyond the edge of space and time" trapped in the body of an adolescent girl dealing with disturbing sexual situations. How terribly apropos... but about 18 times more fun, and with more theoretical physics and greek mythology.

17/1/07 20:32  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

BFP:

I can totally see the Anzaldua connection here as well.

Now I want to go re-read her! So much awesome.

17/1/07 20:35  
Blogger little light said...

BFP, you're spot-on, I think.
Anzaldua wasn't a huge influence on this piece, but she's been such a huge influence on my feminism in general that I'm not surprised she came through. We've talked before about how my ideas about gender are heavily informed by my immersion in mestiza theory and identity; there's that.
And anyone who missed the deliberate hat-tips to Mary Shelley's influence on this piece is possibly illiterate. 'Frankenstein' was a slur I felt like reclaiming.

17/1/07 20:35  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

I haven't read much of yours besides that piece, (though I will be soon), but that she would even try something so transparently full of shit just shows how desperate she is. I'm sorry and hugs, and thank you for writing. (If something didn't make sense, it's because I'm pissed and trying to censor some of it and that makes for incoherence.)

17/1/07 20:38  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

You know, I'm suddenly struck by the irony of someone sending forth their little minions to mindlessly copycat unto the masses an accusation of your being too uncreative to come up with your own damn imagery.

Funny, the mirrors people have.

17/1/07 20:55  
Blogger belledame222 said...

bzz bzz bzz!

17/1/07 21:11  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

*waves waspish stinger*

BZZZZZZZZZZZZZ. FUCKING BZZ.

17/1/07 21:17  
Blogger Renegade Evolution said...

Now now, no more on women as monsterous insects... ;)

17/1/07 21:29  
Blogger ben said...

having no positive critique here, since that mess is just too wrong for words i offer the following affirmation.

Fecking aye.

17/1/07 21:48  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

"Is it that frightening for you to read someone like me actually achieving something like self-acceptance, or deriving strength from having been ground into the ground and refusing to break?"

i think this is exactly right. you wrote a series of entries that were very sucessful in making your experience real and palpable for those outside that experience while also (judging from the comments i read) speaking to people within that experience and those who could identify with it. i don't get into all this blogging drama, but it seems that the discussion sparked by this drama and the drama that inspired the posts (i think?) is a vital one that has been too long in coming in an arena as public as blogs. i don't mean to ascribe meaning to this incident in a "it happened for a reason" type of way, but the resulting critical dialog has been enlightening in a variety of ways.

17/1/07 21:48  
Blogger belledame222 said...

that is her special charm, isn't it.

17/1/07 22:11  
Blogger belledame222 said...

-tries- to take away her voice, that is.

the flying monkeys are being sent out because -this- time, it clearly isn't working.

17/1/07 22:12  
Blogger Sylvia said...

I posted there. I couldn't help it.

It is truly ironic that in identifying someone’s work as borrowing the ideas of another and using them as her own, you cannot even bring yourself to mention the name of the entry, the blogger, or the site that links to her work.

And you ascribe the theme of the monstrous feminine to one poet, as if other artistic works have never treated the subject, and as if other artistic works will never treat it again.

As if all poets, when discussing how the planets revolve around the sun, feel it necessary to footnote their treatments with the works of Galileo.

As if all feminist poets, after referring to the lives of women, send their prose with a works cited page out of fear that their words are not truly spoken or they have no knowledge of their own experiences enough to string words together to articulate them.

Finally, there are important political reasons for my blogging about this. This poem that Robin Morgan wrote, “Monster,” was about the reaction of her small son to Morgan’s own genitals, the same reaction men and boys throughout the ages have had to women’s genitals (when they weren’t using women’s genitals for their own reasons). Women have been made, always, by men, to be monsters.

Also, ironically, I think you’ve revealed your true political reasons for invoking this appeal to literary authority.

17/1/07 22:45  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

And hey, the usual awesome people are there. Big god damn surprise.

Congrats, Heart. All that shit about hate speech and how you hate it so, oh yes?! We all know it's a bunch of bunk. As one person you hold dear once said:

"Now tell the truth and shame the devil, BWAAAAH!!!"

17/1/07 23:16  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

From Mary Sunshine:

Copycats are better cats, seems to be the point in all of this.

Or, mayhap, and this is just a simple, modest suggestion that could enter into your conceptions at some point, maybe sooner or later, maybe never (well, who are we kidding, most likely never), they might, sort of, maybe, be considered...equal cats?

Tough concept, for sure. Empathy and tolerance are amazing hard things to grasp...it seems.

17/1/07 23:32  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

LL, your post was really perfect, notwithstanding the fact that every single word in it, including ‘and’ & ‘the’, had been used earlier, in one place or another, under someone or another’s name. (J’Accuse: you’ve plagiarized the dictionary. Or perhaps that word doesn’t mean what I think that it means?) As a purely literary matter, for my 2¢, what you wrote was actually far superior to Morgan’s poem.

Look, I once said, nothing is said which has not been said before. And genius borrows nobly. As Heart herself almost acknowledges, the figure of monstrous emancipation is ancient & exists in all cultures. It’s well attested in feminist literature (among many, many other places) going back at least to Wollstonecraft (that I know of), long before Robin Morgan came along. So who will accuse Morgan of plagiarism? Seriously, this is just malice & ignorance, & hardly for the first time.

I think we’ve learned all we need to know about this person. So make a mental note: if she threatens people & things you hold dear, respond as necessary, but don’t imagine that anything good can come from it. Time is short, there are better ways to spend it, &, as I said long ago, if you gaze long into an abyss, the abyss will gaze back into you.

XXX

18/1/07 00:45  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

i posted a comment over on heart's blog. it's currently awaiting moderation. it's nothing special - my comment that is. the last time i posted a comment there, someone attacked me for not using capital letters in an effort to position myself as safe and diminutive. *sigh*

as i said there, i never claimed to be a feminist. which is probably why i never read robin morgan's poem. well, that and her reputation of being extremely anti-trans. frankly, i haven't read a lot of feminist writings.

i'm hoping, despite what i've read in the comments on both this blog and heart's blog (and on alas a blog), that perhaps we can take this opportunity to use the exposure on both sides to exchange our thoughts with each other.

i'm tired of fighting. i'm tired of defending myself. i'm tired of justifying my existence. i'm so ready to be extra generous and forgiving so our respective communities can find some sort of common ground, and start working together toward our common goals. instead of fighting and exchanging accusations.

that's my hope, anyway.

18/1/07 00:59  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

HI LL: Just dropping due to Ren's high praises of you and so glad she did -- looks like great "Right up my alley" stuff here!

Okay that I added you to my blogroll?

18/1/07 01:20  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

"dropping BY" that should have been.

#&%@ typos!

18/1/07 01:22  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Sorry to hear that another blog war has arisen from what I felt was an honest and beautiful post. I de-linked from hearts blog a while back (the previous war with bfp etc, I'm sure you heard)

I find the arrogance of the people over there telling women what tothink and read and how to behave is appalling. Discussion is one thing. Blatently dissing someone for not fitting into their idea of what feminism is, is another. I can't stand them any more and will start to cull my blogroll further as a result (That will include her avid fans if I have any in my links!)

Anyway, thank you for the brilliant post. You are blogrolled...

18/1/07 02:13  
Blogger antiprincess said...

aw hell, little light.

I gotta start paying closer attention.

let me go see what's up - I'll be back.

18/1/07 05:20  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Holly --

I'm going to monstrously vomit frogs all over everything on the internet soon if I keep reading certain blogs.

--

oooo. I'm stealing that line. i'll give you credit, 'k?

I'm the one who mentioned morgan over at Belledame's place, and the ONLY reaon I mentioned it was the irony: that the common experience or at least the ability to talk past differences by recognizing that different groups experience different oppression is made impossible by the culturaal/radfem approach. it's gender only and first, everything else is derivative, a special of gender warfare b/t men and women.

so, differences -- where the disabled, the transgendered, the racialized, the class racialized, the fat, etc. -- experience a world in which the metaphor of monstrosity resonates.

To someone like Heart it's, "A HA! See, you can understand how we feel, no you are OUR allies in OUR struggle. By fighting OUR struggle, we will alleviate yours."

To those of us working on a different probject -- intersectionality, decentering, etc. -- this isn't a moment for co-opting several experiences into one wider framework. it is, rather, a time to explore similarities *and* differences.

yadda.

18/1/07 06:22  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

jackgoff -- love the new icon pic.

18/1/07 06:23  
Blogger belledame222 said...

To someone like Heart it's, "A HA! See, you can understand how we feel, no you are OUR allies in OUR struggle. By fighting OUR struggle, we will alleviate yours."

Not even. Or, well, that's what she was doing with bfp; not in this case. In this case it's, you've got teh Man Cooties, not only do you have a different project but it's "working against me/us" (tm Stormcloud, delphyne, a few others). (hey, credit where credit is due; i aims to please).

18/1/07 06:26  
Blogger belledame222 said...

anyway, as far as i'm concered, it's already part of one wider framework: humanity. no co-option needed.

18/1/07 06:29  
Blogger DeniseUMLaw said...

"i'm tired of fighting. i'm tired of defending myself. i'm tired of justifying my existence. i'm so ready to be extra generous and forgiving so our respective communities can find some sort of common ground, and start working together toward our common goals. instead of fighting and exchanging accusations."

Ditto.

18/1/07 08:38  
Blogger belledame222 said...

Denise: I hear you, and in this instance it's not really my place to say, I know.

but just in general: i think, you know, it takes two to tango.

and while i wouldn't give up on any -community,- necessarily, there are some -individuals- that may just not be reachable after all.

and yes, i am aware that even wrt some of those individuals, mileage varies.

i am overstepping.

it just, i have to say it, galls me, in general? when i see people reach out in love and sincerity and get, at best, "rewarded" with a pat on the head; to be rescinded harshly at the patter's discretion. that's not really a fair exchange, it seems to me; that is not a dialogue between equals. It -should- be. But...

18/1/07 09:03  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Hey LL. I've put my comment on all of this back at my place, don't wanna be spittin' my bile all over your blog!

18/1/07 12:16  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Heart's latest:

Q Grrl, how could I — even if I wanted to, which I don’t — “suppress” Little Light’s words?...So, it’s not going to work, I don’t think, to assert that little light’s (or anybody’s) use of symbols and metaphors like those Robin Morgan used won’t diminish what Robin Morgan wrote, won’t create a gap. Depends on who is reading. Depends on history/herstory. Depends on what’s gone down between the writer and the women reading. Depends on all sorts of things.

Well, then. Same with your post and who is reading that. It's not going to work, to assert what you assert without specifically trying to supress what little light has said, to make her feel less of a person somehow because she was not aware of something your lovey doveys accuse her of plagiarizing.

Pony's kidnapping horseshit? Yeah. That's not invective or suppressing at all, nyuh uh. Don't even get me started on luckynkl's bile soaked tripe. Depends on who's reading you, as your fine collection of commenters so adequately shows.

18/1/07 14:04  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

ohmegosh ... bad, bad monster, how dare you open your mouth without asking for permission in alla the right places first?! shame, shame, shame ...

though not on you. enjoy the hits! ;-)

18/1/07 14:43  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Sorry to further incite but:

And really, it’s in discussions like this that we find out, or decide, or establish, or gain insight into whether, in fact, bridges will be built or burned, gaps will be closed or created.

Bullshit. All it does is give the misinformed bigots a chance to flex their hatred. No one is learning anything from this except that a few people we never expected to have empathy show that, well, yep, they ain't got empathy. Never heard of it. Wassat?

It's pretty damn obvious the way this should have gone about, but, because of the fact that you have some throats to stomp and a rally to organize, it never happened.

18/1/07 15:26  
Blogger belledame222 said...

hee

meanwhile:

"Pony's kidnapping (self)shit"

say WHA? "kidnapping?" don't make me go over there again please. just give me the essence of her blather, so that i may point and laugh.

18/1/07 17:34  
Blogger belledame222 said...

and, well, JG, once again, we do also find new connections between ourselves, the rest of us who don't dwell in Bizarro World, I mean. and sometimes some of us find lovely new (to us) sites and voices as well. that is always nice.

18/1/07 17:37  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Pony:

The word plagiarism comes from a Latin verb meaning “kidnap”.

Damn heathens are comin' to drink the blood o' yer babies!

18/1/07 17:50  
Blogger Ravenmn said...

Hey, there. You've been so good to me when I've commented here, I figured I'd better jump in. I put up a couple of posts at Heart's place.

I also mentioned that in the old days as a student I could put together a paper showing the obvious differences between the two works. And I could still do it. But I probably won't. It seems to me the ideas are nearly opposite as somebody mentioned elsewhere.

Hang in there, Chica! You're doing just fine.

18/1/07 18:53  
Blogger belledame222 said...

Pony, Etymologist.

18/1/07 19:37  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

My dear, I am very sorry to report that this incident has caused moi, for the very first time in my career, to post something overtly unkind upon someone else's blog. No doubt it will not pass 'comment moderation,' so I am committing the double sin of re-posting it here, in solidarity.

What an absolutely ridiculous discussion. If every author of a brilliant piece of work were required to footnote every stunningly mediocre piece of poetry which has ever been written, which might have a tangential relationship to it in terms of theme or imagery, nothing would EVER get written, except possibly Pony’s posts, which are only surpassed in their arrogant ignorance by their psychotically virulent overtones.

Girls, get out of your pseudo-academic posturings and get lives. Really. I am veritably disgusted.

18/1/07 20:41  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Ah, the transgender menace strikes again..

I for one am profoundly disappointed that there wasn't a works cited list at the end of little light's post. Which is ever so practical you know.

*works I may have drawn on ever so incidentally in preparing this comment*

Auerbach, Nina. Our Vampires, Ourselves. Chicago: Chicago UP, 1995.

Halberstam, Judith. Skin Shows: Gothic Horror and the Technology of Monsters. Durham: Duke UP, 1995.

Ingebretson, Edward J. At Stake: Monsters and the Rhetoric of Fear in Public Culture. Chicago: Chicago UP, 2001.

You get the point. Loved your original post Little Light, thanks for that xx

18/1/07 21:12  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

I believe the majority of the opinions expressed on that blog to be the opinions of complete and utter assholes. However, that's not why I couldn't get through the thread.

I tried reading Heart's thread and comments section in its entirety, I really did. But due to the obvious lack of said poster's use of the agreed upon definitions for words and concepts such as 'plagiarism' and 'cultural appropriation,' I refused to read further. As a lover of words, that thread butchered them mercilessly.

Also, who the fuck does do they think they are, the literature police? Please. The use of the concept 'monster' as something to be reclaimed isn't even remotely new, let alone property of any sole party, including the author she's claiming. Little Light, your writing and Robin Morgan's poem aren't even remotely close; Yours is better, in my opinion, by far. Absolutely *Love* the use of imagery, and the references to the older monsters, especially the ones
from religion, really pack a punch.

18/1/07 21:40  
Blogger Cassandra Says said...

Frankenstein's just the beginning. Monsters, and struggle with monsters, have been a central literary theme since we figured out how to write things down. Has this woman never read a book that wasn't about feminist theory? Or heard of the theory of the collective unconcious?
I've run across Heart before. At first I thought she was just a little odd in the standard "oh no, please don't make me listen to your vague meaningless New Age crap" way, but then I started to notice the way she always implies that no one else has really worked and sacrificed for the cause the same way she has and that those of us poor deluded Third Wave children really should be quiet and defer to her greater knowledge, because who are we to think we're entitled to have opinions? And then there's the way she talks about men...
And it's all done in this "I'm not really being cruel, judgemental and uncompassionate, don't you understand that Mommy is trying to help you?" tone that just sets my teeth on edge.
Also, what's with all the nonsense about Universal Womanhood blah blah blah? Who elected her the official representative of the female experience (as if there was such a thing as a universal female experience - again, she might want to read a few books bout race relations). I'm a woman, I'm a feminist, and most of what she says doesn't resonate with me at all. Does that mean that I'm a man or just an alien?
Not to mention that critiquing littlelight in a space where she can't answer back and probably wouldn't have even seen it if someone hadn't pointed it out is just cowardly. Methinks that someone knows that she's in the wrong and just doesn't want to admit it.
And don't even get me started on the phrase "political lesbian" I'm attracted to women (and men too!) and you know what? There's nothing "political" about it.

18/1/07 22:09  
Blogger little light said...

Well, Cassandra, AW, as it says up top of the site, I'm a religion scholar. I'm drenched in that stuff.
I have influences, and I don't hide them. I'm proud of my influences.
Most of them are a lot older than the Seventies, though; I admit that the recent stuff is a hole in my education.

Religion and mythology and stories are what I do and know. It's the same as a a carpenter choosing to write about her experiences using the metaphors of hand-tools and dovetails and house-building. The allusions in here are older than Shelley, too, going back to the mythical and Biblical and fantastical frames of reference.

My ideas are only as original as anyone else's, but I know who my influences are, and to whom I owe my view from the shoulders of giants. And I will damn well not be called a liar and a thief when the folk I actually do owe a debt to are being erased by the insistence that I stole from some woman I hadn't really heard of instead of learning from them.

I cannot be expected to drop on my knees and jettison the debt I owe to postcolonial feminists, Islamic feminists, my own storytelling ancestors, the conversations I built on about disability advocacy and transhumanism in order to pretend that the only source for inspiration I could have had is someone, no matter how grand, I have never had contact with.

18/1/07 22:37  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

If I'm remembering an essay I once read correctly... there are myths about the monstrous feminine in practically every culture. Dentata anyone? Robin Morgan certainly didn't invent this idea, not by a long shot. She wasn't the first woman to seize the concept of "woman as monster" and draw power and strength from it. That started to happen many thousands or tens of thousands of years ago. And being a radical feminist does not give you first rights to these ideas in the modern world any more than Christopher Columbus made a legitimate claim to Cuba upon landing there. Since someone else already dragged out the artillery of "cultural appropriation" and "colonization" maybe we should talk about how a woman of color is drawing on mythology and powerful imagery from non-white cultures, only to be told by white women that a white author thought of it first, in the 1960s? Myopic: historically, culturally, politically. Near-sighted vision, that sees as far as what can be considered radical feminism, and no further.

18/1/07 22:38  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Oh dammit we did that brain sharing thing again, at the same minute too.

18/1/07 22:39  
Blogger Cassandra Says said...

Piny said "It's not intellectual but political property that Little Light is ripping off. It's not okay for her to use similar metaphors to describe her own history and position, because it implies that her struggle is on a level with Morgan's. "
Got it in one. What I'm still trying to figure out is why so many feminists feel so threatened by trans people. Why the panic?
And also, Mary Shelley wasn't anticipating anything, or making any real comment RE women's status in society. She was just really really high.
And nexyjo said "the last time i posted a comment there, someone attacked me for not using capital letters in an effort to position myself as safe and diminutive."
Um, OK. And you would want to do that why, exactly? Projection is always an amusing thing to observe, no?
littlelight, sorry for the excessively long comment(s). By the way, despite what Heart and friends may think, your poem was actually better than the so-called original.

18/1/07 22:48  
Blogger belledame222 said...

you know what else I love: the entire Morgan post, esp. with Heart's preface: guess what? gay men are indeed the Enemy too! or at least y'know they have like nothing to do with Womens' Struggles. on account of Morgan was apparently married to a selfish 'stain (as viewed through her lens).

straight & asexual homophobic women are just fine though. well as long as they're you know, au fait with this and that and the other thing and...so ever-narrowing and recursive we're not only completely up our own assholes but into autocannibalization--

you know what other poem i am suddenly thinking of?

In The Desert
Stephen Crane

In the desert
I saw a creature, naked, bestial,
Who, squatting upon the ground,
Held his heart in his hands,
And ate of it.
I said: “Is it good, friend?”
“It is bitter—bitter,” he answered;
“But I like it
Because it is bitter,
And because it is my heart.”

18/1/07 23:16  
Blogger Cassandra Says said...

little light - unfortunately some people seem to be under the impression that the world began in 1962 and nothing said or written before that really counts. I'm guessing that most of the allusions you made went completely over their heads.

18/1/07 23:34  
Blogger Ravenmn said...

Part of Heart's argument was that Morgan was the first feminist using the monster idea. That's why a lot of us pointed to Shelley, who was very very high and included some feminist ideas. Last night I thought about "The Yellow Wallpaper" as another example. There are probably hundreds more.

I am clueless about more ancient history so I'm sure I missed a lot of illusions in your lovely poem. A friend of mine had a chameleon name Cybele, does that count?

19/1/07 05:22  
Blogger timberwraith said...

Regardless of your detractors, I still love your poem, Little Light. I look forward to reading more of your writing. :)

There are some social circles in the world that are simply swirling pools of emotional toxicity. It takes a lot of energy to keep such high levels of negativity going. Unless fuel is regularly added to the fire, that kind of negativity sometimes turns on its owner and consumes them alive. Looks like someone decided to use your work as a means of stoking their shared bonfires of dysfunction.

You don’t have focus on yourself if you are constantly attacking others.

19/1/07 06:24  
Blogger timberwraith said...

Gah.

Actually, that should have read:

You don’t have TO focus on yourself if you are constantly attacking others.

19/1/07 06:28  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

You don’t have focus on yourself if you are constantly attacking others.

Exactly. All you have to do is keep smugly posting about how the existence of a certain group of people oppresses you in some fashion, use as much blood libel as possible, and flat out lie constantly and consistently as to the motives of the people you despise, and you got it made.

Also, constantly accuse your targets of misreading your arguments, or say that the other side want to always be better than you when they say they want equal treatment. Hey, it works for the homobigots, right? Make your oppressive bullshit a reality today!

19/1/07 06:39  
Blogger belledame222 said...

mhm. "Projection: it's what's for dinner!"

A lot of this seems to be based on the flat-out insistence that women (as in, people born with a vulva and attendant bits who got the "F" on the birth certificate) -must- be looked at as a Class, you know, so that, to take it to the extreme, a Maggie Thatcher has more in common with a mixed-race transnational working-class "woman-born" lesbian teenaged girl than the latter does with a young mixed-race transnational working-class MTF, transdyke; cause otherwise the whole Theory falls apart, or something, and we can't have that. No.

19/1/07 07:46  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Class Man has subjugated Class Woman since the beginnings of humanity; therefore now Class Woman must rise up and struggle against Class Man. Anyone who moves between these categories messes everything up; are they traitors, immigrants, or spies? Maybe they should be put in internment camps just in case.

Alternate (and more radical) take:
Class Man has subjugated Class Woman since the beginnings of humanity; the first step is done by separating humans into these two classes. Therefore, Class Woman in particular must dismantle the entire class system. Anyone who is using the class system somehow, in any way at all, is not helping dismantle; therefore they must be helping support it, and are counter-revolutionary.

Super oversimplified grade school version, but that's the capsule explanation.

19/1/07 08:05  
Blogger belledame222 said...

that's right. except for, at least in Heart's world, Class Women who partner with Class Men are still welcome (not that i am saying the super-seekrit Lesbian Separatists are better). sand, more important, there's no negotiation or compromise to be brooked with Class Men; and yet, no one that i'm aware of is suggesting "Let's Kill 'Em All!" or even has the means to like physically subjugate 'em; but so like we're not trusting them enough to hold y'know real dialogue and we're not setting the buttons on "destroy" in any realistic way, so...

19/1/07 10:42  
Blogger belledame222 said...

no, I'm totally serious, though. -how- exactly is Class Woman "dismantling" the System? I see some people attempting to -withdraw,- to varying degrees of totality, and y'know mazel tov if that's what works for you personally. As a global strategy, though, y'know, i -just- don't think that's gonna work too well. Good luck with that, though, really.

19/1/07 10:44  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Well, as I understand it, part of the idea behind separatism is for survival and safety; another part of it is about building skills in a community, enough to create a whole society in theory, enough that women wouldn't necessarily need to rely on men. Which pragmatically speaking, is a great idea, even if you're not going to go off and live on an island by yourself forever or create a virus that destroys all men, etc. And then I think part of the idea of having such a community is to serve as a tiny first-steps model of a utopian future that isn't patriarchal. What exactly that consist of gender-wise would probably vary depending on who you ask, whether it's no more men, or gender has been eradicated and the distinctions between men and women are mostly meaningless, etc.

So there is kind of a revolutionary project in that idea. Which I don't think is a bad thing, even though personally I would prefer visions of the future that involved a lot more than simply dismantling gender and sexism, since I don't simply trust that that's the keystone that would make all other oppression fall down. There are a lot of other things to do. And I kind of think "utopian visioning" can be a good exercise for a lot of different struggles. I've learned a lot about that kind of thinking from prison abolitionists, although I still don't totally grsap it. This is why I think some of the discussions going on a couple threads back, in the "building blocks" post, were good starting points. I think you can create a post-oppression vision of the future from a lot of different angles -- and in fact we need to, in order to take small steps towards a better tomorrow. Attacking sexism alone is not enough.

19/1/07 11:37  
Blogger belledame222 said...

well, i get that, as well; it's just, y'know, watching this particular attempt at a kind of separatist women's space, in terms of community-building, wrt new tools?

...i, you know, i am sure that the community Heart has gathered serves many purposes for the women involved, you know, many beneficial ones. we all need a "safe space," however we define that. sure. and support, within whatever boundaries we define. wouldn't try to take that away.

but uh as far as better tools for engaging with the rest of the world?

color me biased, but i theenk they've maybe got some work cut out for 'em.

just sayin'.

19/1/07 12:01  
Blogger belledame222 said...

also, you know, as a preparatory tiny first step: well see that's also what kind of squicks me out. because, i am thinking: if it's like this NOW, what on earth would it be like with any -real- power...??

i am thinking: not better.

and i am also thinking: the problem here as i see it is based on a very erroneous assumption: not just that Class Men are the enemy, but that all Women are therefore...safer. better equipped to deal with y'know building a better world. inherently. or because of the very oppression they received since birth, whatever.

i am not convinced.

19/1/07 12:04  
Blogger Ravenmn said...

I think I'm getting Heart's POV, even though I disagree. I just posted this over there:

"Heart, I want to thank you for explaining your point of view and thank RE for asking the questions that made it clearer. I did not realize that you consider Little Light a person from a completely different culture than your own. I did not realize that you consider Robin Morgan represents Radical Feminist culture rather than the broader culture of feminism. That's what I'm hearing now, and please correct me if I am wrong. "

So it's not plagiarism she's accusing you of (although Pony and MS sure did), but appopriation. Little Light was supposed to use images of people exactly like her in her poetry.

We'll see. I could be totally wrong.

As for separatism, it's hard to realize today the impact of going to Michigan and seeing an entire community made up of women putting on a professional show and a week-long experience. In the early days, there simply weren't many places created solely by women. It was a wonderful dream, but to see it in action was life-changing. It still is for women living in more traditional cultures, including small-town America.

19/1/07 12:09  
Blogger belledame222 said...

You know what, I am sorry. People busted a metaphorical cap on TF's ass because she allowed vile hateful transphobic shit to be posted at her site without kiboshing (which she eventually did, much, much later, after much hue and cry). Okay. So, Heart says she is not down with that sort of talk, and distances herself from TF in various ways. Wants people to understand that -they are not the same.- Okay.

So, right there under her convoluted-ass sweetie whatever posts, we get this:

# Mary Sunshine Says:
January 19th, 2007 at 7:52 pm

For the record, I was just really offended to see little light’s page where (s)he (?) has thrown up all kinds of ancient female Goddess imagery and obviously done a makeover of Robin Morgan’s poem to try to present him/her/its self as a born-female.

These female power images have *everything* to do with female biological creative power: gestation, birth, and lactation.

That power is an essential and unremoveable part of those images.

The fearsomeness of female being is very much connected to these particular powers, amongst others.

Trannies really, really do need to realize that there are some lines they should not be crossing.

OK, fine, call yourself “she”, get your body hacked up (or not), get “recognized” as something or other. But you know what? Your imagined “rights” don’t exceed mine: my right to say “hell, no!” when you’re presenting yourself as what I *am* and you *are not*.

You *have not* almost died in childbirth. (I have).

You *have not* almost lost your newborn daughter in that process. (I have).

You *have not* lactated and nourished your own child from your own body. (I have).

These experiences of female power and danger have not been, and never will, be yours.

So back off with the imagery that suggests that they are.

Mary S.



And there you have it, folks.

That's as bad or worse as anything I saw at TF's. And Heart let it through mod AND she xxxxooo's Mary Sunshine.

i have no interest in anything else she has to say.

(Hey, MS, I haven't had kids either, or lactated, or nothin'; ain't I a woman? Don't bother answering, really).

oh yeah, and Amy's Brain, the one who's linked to Questioning Transgender, the whole "I hear violins" business when RE mentioned LL might have felt (gee) hurt?

Get stuffed.

19/1/07 12:30  
Blogger belledame222 said...

"Ain't I a [Trans]Woman,"

Slip!

hey, piny, we -both thought of the same analogy at the same time.- Who owes whom royalties?

19/1/07 12:30  
Blogger belledame222 said...

ravenm: the problem is that she is attempting to equate a sociopolitical "culture" with something that cuts a lot more deeply. It's sorta like y'know people saying they "don't agree with the gay lifestyle."

well, that's -one- problem; the other is that she's a...

no, i said enough.

19/1/07 12:32  
Blogger little light said...

Well, that's pleasantly explicit.
"Its."
That's what this comes down to. I dared to participate in human history, and to tell stories I'm not allowed, because I'm not a real person.
I'm a--what's it?--hacked up thing who ought to be at the edges of civilization and kicked when it gets too close, and certainly not allowed human speech or a glance at the Divine.
I think there's a word for that.

You just prove my point, children. You just make me stronger.


Also, per children, and literature I should know? I'm twenty-four years old. Most of yer "real women" I hang out with haven't got that stuff on the checklist, either.

19/1/07 12:39  
Blogger belledame222 said...

piny: and, as trin mentioned over at my spot, there is or was this idea floating around radical/70's/heyday second-wave feminism at one point, that claiming individual authorial ownership/copyright of any written work or piece of art was ITSELF anti-feminist. you know: it's -womens' culture,- collective. we must stop competing with each other like THEY want us to do (never mind that THEY also don't want "us" to claim personal subjectivity or ownership either), see.

so, even though it's Robin Morgan and -not- "anonymous," as I was saying to trin and i think these latest uh clarifications reveal, it makes perfect sense really that LL could've never heard of Morgan and she's still stealing. Morgan is a woman: Morgan, presumably as is Heart and Mary Sunshine and pony and binkie and muffy and (sorry) and all the rest of the gang, is Woman. all for one and one for all. just like Heart: she has no personal ego really, her poems are her experience, Womens' experience, and a gift to the universe, nanoo fucking nanoo.

i wonder if Heart gets a cut of Morgan's royalties. if she didn't before, she should really ask now, you know.

so, yeah, I would say that in fact LL and Heart -are- coming from completely different places.

LL, as far as I can tell, resides on Earth.

19/1/07 12:47  
Blogger belledame222 said...

LL: you're only 24?? damn, woman, you're amazing.

that's one of the other things I love about the Internets: i keep meeting all these amazing people who're, like, whippersnappers. Black Amazon, even a few teenagers lately.

(creak, groan).

p.s. LL I am sorry if reposting that here upset you. I thought better after i hit "post," but by then it was too late. I was mad.

19/1/07 12:49  
Blogger belledame222 said...

This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.

19/1/07 12:52  
Blogger belledame222 said...

and y'know, a number of the ancient goddesses you called on there were not so mean in their distinctions. does Mary Sunshine (!) even know who Cybele -is?-

19/1/07 12:53  
Blogger little light said...

It's okay, Belle; someone would have, if you hadn't.
It needs reposting here.
People need to know what this is really about; they've exposed their true faces over there, finally.

And they've done so mostly by collectively admitting to what exactly they think I am and, well, confirming my work.

Keep on kicking.
I've got plenty of blood to spare.

19/1/07 12:55  
Blogger little light said...

The goddesses and monsters I mentioned, too, were explicit--Hel is part living woman, part corpse, sister to monsters, product of a prophecy that says she should never have been. Lilitu and Lamia and Scylla are all part normative woman's body, part animal, blood-drinking. Baba Yaga is presented as grotesque in shape. Ashtoreth has been turned into other than what She was. And yeah, Cybele's priesthood was transgendered. And Kapo 'ula-kina'u, who I doubt any of them has heard of before? Ever? My patron Goddess? She appeared in dreams to announce Her blessing on women with irregular, missing, or nonstandard genitalia, because She detached her vulva to fly around, and didn't have one.

If you don't know the sources I'm working with, folks, don't go appropriating 'em for some twentieth-century movement they wouldn't have approved of.

19/1/07 13:00  
Blogger belledame222 said...

No shit.

Well, and speaking of let's call it appropriation, besides every other galling irony--the "political lesbian" crap, the "we invented feminism! and systemic ways of describing oppression! and the Internet! and the cat!" crap: hello, you really don't own European (or any other) pagan traditions or ffs goddess-worship on top of it now, particularly seeing as how you apparently have no fucking idea what you're talking about.

"Nowadays every girl with a henna tattoo and a spice rack thinks she's Sister to the Dark Ones."

--Willow, BTVS (surprise)

19/1/07 13:05  
Blogger little light said...

As to being 24: yeah. And when you add in that I've been in transition of some form or another for five or six years, and got kicked out of preschool for violating gender norms...well. Says some interesting things about the decades of male socialization I'm supposed to have had.
I won't deny there were some years of boyhood in there. I never have. I wouldn't have had to write what I did if my experience were the same as any other woman's, or my body were marked in the same way.

You can't get away with claiming my socialization wasn't "brutal," though. I have scars and faded bruises that will attest to that.

I'm proud of those scars. They're mine.

I already said it; I'm glad they came out and have started really saying it. One of 'em has even admitted that they haven't even read my piece, and are just assuming that it's an inferior copy because it has to be, and any assertion otherwise is just an attempt to privilege a male writer. I'm glad the actual motivations here have been drawn out.

Now you've shown your face, and I've shown mine. Teeth were bared. What did we learn?

19/1/07 13:07  
Blogger belledame222 said...

And the whining and crying about not reading them or misreading them turns out to be what it always was: sociopathy. MS, you're a goddamn sociopath is what you are.

Well, she's -something-, all right.

"There's a wee want there," as my best friend would say.

Yeah. It wears a million different faces and comes in a million different packages, that...whatever it is...(yah, there are clinical names for it, but influenced as i am by QD and others, i'm gonna try to see if i can do without for now): but you know, it always comes out the same, really, in the final analysis.


"I want you to hurt like I hurt."

"I'm cold. Put on a sweater."

"I am you and you are he and he are we and we are come together..."

"I'm Every Woman! I Am the Cosmos! I Am The Walrus! Goo goo ka choob."

"You are hurting my fist with your face."

"You are hurting me by existing separately."

"You are hurting me by existing at all."

"There's no room for the both of us."

19/1/07 13:14  
Blogger belledame222 said...

One of 'em has even admitted that they haven't even read my piece

There's a shocker, coming from that group of mensches and MENSA candidates. which one? pony, perchance?

19/1/07 13:15  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

I was going to point out the Cybele thing but you guys beat me too it. I mean, what? What is this, I can steal your claim-staked cultural legacies before you steal mean? Does she really not know who the priestesses of Cybele were? Like belledame said, it's really galli-ng. Hah! I made a pun!

I'm really glad Heart is claiming to be one of the defenders of all these cultural symbols, from cultures around the world, that must belong solely to those she defines as women. That's just what we need white women to be doing. Gathering all the myths and stories and religious figures up, and keeping them safe from the grubby fingers of sexbots and trannies.

19/1/07 13:25  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Nice:

what’s disturbing is, when radical feminists/lesbian separatists began exploring goddess imagery, ancient matriarchal cultures, women’s culture, women’s spirituality, and so on, they were shunned as “essentialists,” and the dreaded “cultural feminists.” That’s when the erasure really began. When transwomen use this imagery today, somehow the response is not the same. The same folks who ran women/radical feminists/lesbian separatists out on a rail for loving and making use of this imagery (including men) welcome the same for those who are male born, who are transpersons.

Huh? Wassat? I don't recall ever saying that radical feminists can't utilize the goddess imagery.

I recall getting angry that a few radical feminists were calling transgender people nutjobs *cough cough company you keep*. I recall getting angry that a few radical feminists harassed another feminist to the point of her nearly physically harming herself. Everything else, dear Heart, I am unaware of. You can use whatever imagery you like and makes you happy. That is not where your gender essentialism is coming from. For that, you need to be reading Miss Sunshine.

19/1/07 13:47  
Blogger Ravenmn said...

LL wrote: "If you don't know the sources I'm working with, folks, don't go appropriating 'em for some twentieth-century movement they wouldn't have approved of"

Damn my ignorance. This is just too cool, LL. Thanks for explaining.

In case I'm being unclear, I disagree with Heart now that I get what she's saying.

Also, as an adoptive mother I've just been thrown out the club, too. Heh.

19/1/07 13:49  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Yeah, that one made me laugh. I really wonder who these "same folks" are who slam radical feminists for exploring mythology and women's contributions to culture throughout history, and then turn around and are patting little light on the back. I don't see them around here, but perhaps they're invisible. They must be the Leprechauns of the Patriarchy, because as we know, the LotP just loooove trans women. Heck, I am going to go pick up my pot of gold right now, thank god I still have a birth certificate somewhere with "M" on it because that gets me into all the right leprechaun clubs.

19/1/07 15:02  
Blogger belledame222 said...

oh, good grief, you fucking wetbrain, EXPLORING goddess etc. doesn't make you an "essentialist," claiming that 1) WE DID IT FIRST AND FOR ALWAYS THE GODDESSES ARE OURS ALL OURS and 2) being born with a hoohoo makes you a magical mystical Speshul Being does. really not that frigging complicated.

and by the way? I have some Irish feminist and traditional witch friends who would be -most- interested in your "we were here first" bullshit.

19/1/07 15:26  
Blogger belledame222 said...

What a vile thread. And, of course, someone had to drag in black people as justification for their bigotry. As if we (or I, at least) have not spent enough centuries listening to people theorize and debate our humanity, right to exist, right to self name, right to cultural imagery, and everything else to not recognize this anti trans garbage for exactly what it is.

Yes well. And of course that was the point bfp and some others were making when first she tackled the Twisty debacle; and then Heart swans in and starts in with her whole, nonono, you have MISUNDERSTOOD Us-Me, what a hurtful thing to say...it got complicated. and there were various spinoff eruptions in various WOC sites--you saw, the AD thing, and responses to -that- of various sorts.

but the upshot being:

she's -really- not making friends and influencing people, here, is dear Heart, I don't think.

i can't imagine why

19/1/07 15:29  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Bah! Everyone knows the Leprechauns of the Patriarchy have a soft place in their wee green hearts for those bonnie Irish feminists!

19/1/07 15:30  
Blogger belledame222 said...

and, my god, the DWAMA. the same folk: um, no? the "same folk," you really are going to have to be more specific, there. and "run out on a rail."

and someone in THERE is playing sarcastic "violin music" because Ren (that sentimental fool) suggests gee you might've been a tad hurtful there?

god, what is their TRAUMA already? sheezus.

19/1/07 15:33  
Blogger belledame222 said...

holly: snerk! i saw the pot of gold thing after i wrote that...

(STOP plagiarizing my BRAIN already!!)

19/1/07 15:34  
Blogger belledame222 said...

...i mean, okay, it's like this: there is the experience of oppression as a woman, okay, legit. And then there is the theoretical examination of the differences between radical feminism and some other kinds of feminism--say a new feminism of the monstrous, say: done in a certain way, legit.

And then there is what is now apparently being appealed to: the experience of oppression as a Radical Feminist.

um. sorry. no. no sympathy. really. particularly when you try to 1) conflate that with the experience of being oppressed as a -woman- 2) try to put it up against the experience of being oppressed as a transperson.

Life: theory. Life: theory.

One of these things really -isn't- like the other, but that doesn't mean what they think it means.

19/1/07 15:38  
Blogger Ravenmn said...

LL wrote: "What have we learned?"

Um, that there is a club you don't want to be a member of that doesn't want you as a member?

19/1/07 16:47  
Blogger J. Goff said...

Aw, Richie:

some of the REALLY horrible things that some of the dudes (most of whom have pro-prostitution blogs) who are friends, really buddy buddy, with a few of the women who have posted in defense of Little Light in this thread, have said.

Well, assuming you are including me, which is an assumption that may not be valid, I, uh, don't have a "pro-prostitution" blog. And I care very deeply about the way transgender people are treated by other people. But, fine, it is, of course, not your responsibility to actually learn about who you talk about, and you can spout whatever you feel is right. Truth ain't no thang, eh deary?

19/1/07 17:58  
Blogger J. Goff said...

Next up: we all want to drink the tasty blood of radfem babies at our biannual super-secret-to-the-infinity-totally Henchwoman meetings that we aren't supposed to talk about.

Uh...oops.

19/1/07 18:02  
Blogger belledame222 said...

:eyeroll: i sure do love me some Male Radical Feminists. and the wimminz who love them!

sometimes i think they're just basically inverted MRA's. or vice versa. something.

19/1/07 18:03  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

I'm totally new to this blog and to blogging in general, hope it's okay if I say something.

What really hit me over at Heart's was MS's "get out of my skin jack" wtf?? As if when a bunch of young dudes yell scat at me on the street because (they think) I'm a woman, they're really harrassing HER?? (because it's her skin I've stolen etc etc) For a while I believed this was really about appropriating imagery, but no more. When you dig deep enough it's that we fucking. dare. to. exist.

And belledame222, I agree completely, Heart and some others over there (and on the old MWMF boards) really do conflate being a radles kind of feminist with being a woman. They identify with all women, therefore they ARE all women, and anyone, any woman who says otherwise is a dupe of the patriarchy, or just hasn't seen the light yet.

There are so many different kinds of fundamentalism, but they all smell the same.

19/1/07 18:21  
Blogger belledame222 said...

There are so many different kinds of fundamentalism, but they all smell the same.

dammit! I said that! stop plagiarizing me! everyone is plagiarizing me and picking my braaiiiinnnnnn todayyyyy

but yah. maybe "fundamentalist feminist" is a useful term. it's something beyond and away from "radical feminism" even as most people understand that term today, i rather think, that is.

welcome to the wacky world of blogging, btw!

19/1/07 18:26  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Wow, the whole conversation over there is the first one that has made my physically sick in a long time. Ugh.

BTW, out of curiosity (because I've only skimmed it an I'm not going to risk puking on my laptop to read the whole thing) has anybody pointed out to Pony that her "MLA, Chicago, etc. all say it's plagiarism" argument is wrong because those styles pertain to academic and scientific research only and have no jurisdiction over creative works?

And as for belledame's comments about Mary Sunshine, I couldn't agree more. How could you be so stupid and hateful at the same time? I guess it happens every day.

19/1/07 19:04  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

"but yah. maybe "fundamentalist feminist" is a useful term. it's something beyond and away from "radical feminism" even as most people understand that term today, i rather think, that is."

Mmmmm-hmmm. RIIIIIGHT ON, right on.

19/1/07 19:05  
Blogger belledame222 said...

has anyone pointed out to pony

You can try, but past experience of various people attempting to point out various things to pony has left me with the conclusion that I'd have more luck explaining quantum physics to my cat.

also, my cat's a lot less likely to decompensate into some incredibly nasty, below the belt attack. well, unless you count that he does bite my ankle sometimes, that is true. he's a lot cuter, though.

19/1/07 19:35  
Blogger J. Goff said...

I'd have more luck explaining quantum physics to my cat.

Well, see, we stick you in this box, and attached to that box is a device that will kill you if this radioactive atom decays. What? Where you running to? COME BACK HERE! IT'S A VALID EXPERIMENT!

19/1/07 19:39  
Blogger timberwraith said...

ROTFLMAO!

That was a good one, Jack!

19/1/07 20:27  
Blogger mkeagle said...

I finally went to Heart's blog, but felt a little ill only barely into the comments and stopped reading. I simply do not understand what some people find so threatening about other human beings. It boggles the mind. I find your piece lovely, and wholly original.

19/1/07 23:36  
Blogger Anthony Kennerson said...

Oh. Fucking. WOW.

The trans-bigotry straight out of Paul Cameron/Judith Reisman/NARTH/ex-gay playbook (Hey, MS, why not go all the way and say that "it" (read, LittleLight) breeds HIV and spreads it to "real" women??); the biological supremacist arguments (although, apparantly, women who have babies and lactate but who happen to be "pornstitutes" or other infidels outside the charmed circle seem to be exempted from their analysis); and now, the attempt to appropriate (if not steal outright) Black people's struggles while denying real WOC feminists even the decency of a response (witness Heart's latest screed against Chasingmoksha in the more recent portions of the thread)???

This be radicalfeminism??? Right....if David Duke was a radicalfeminist.

Me thinks that Heart needs a new title for her blog: I'd go for "FreeRadfemRepublic.com".

"Fundamentalist feminist" is more than apt...though the adjective "Right wing" before that fits even better by me.

You f'ing rule, LittleLight. And those haters can just go....far, far away.


Anthony

20/1/07 10:34  
Blogger belledame222 said...

oh well, Anthony, as far as that goes, that lot has expressed yer basic homophobia as well, for all their claim to "political lesbianism." lucky's response to someone trying to reason with her as though she did not have springs coming of out her head, wherein the person made the by-now-oft-noted comparison to gay marriage (i.e. how is this really taking away from -you,- -really?-),

"nice ANALogy, but"

and then went on to explain how she didn't believe in the barbaric institution of marriage for ANYONE, so of course she wasn't gonna support same-sex marriage, on account of when you're trying to tear the whole rotten house down you don't add on another room, "silly."

o and elsewhere, on a different trip, where the ever-charming pony told Pretty Lady "You sound like a fag." (*did* anyone over there at IBTP even call her on that one?)

and of course, as already noted, in the comments of this Margins thread, where Heart posts the whole Morgan poem, she prefaces it with the background that Morgan was...

well, wait, here:

Following is Robin Morgan’s poem, Monster, in its entirety. Remember, it was written in 1971. By way of context, Morgan’s husband, whom she is referring to in the poem, was one of the founders of the Gay Liberation Front, one of the first gay liberation organizations in the U.S. Although he was married to Robin Morgan, he (and other pro-feminist men at the time) identified as a “fag,” as “effeminate,” and as variations of those words. The words were intended to be outrageous and confrontational (the earliest version of “we’re here, we’re queer, get used to it”) and were intended to be a move in the direction of deconstructing masculinity and heteronormativity. Morgan’s poem was written as some of these “conscious men” talked in the kitchen.

The poem imo is as right on time today as it was when it was written.


IOW: they may be gay, but they're still MEN, dammit. They can't really deconstruct masculinity and heteronormativity; they have no real part in Our Struggle, they will always be attempting to co-opt and consume and monsterize women. Because they're MEN.

20/1/07 11:34  
Blogger belledame222 said...

p.s. note to geniuses over there, including the curiously exempt Man Rich: there is no such thing as "drag culture," all right?

ffs.

20/1/07 11:35  
Blogger soopermouse said...

i see Heart has managed to continue on her destruction path. It reminds me of the discussion I had with her last summer, Belledame remembers- about who gets to define what and all the shitstorm that followed.

Let me say this: I don't give a flying fuck about women's spaces, and political lesbianism and separatism or any other of that sanctimonios shit.

She doesn't speak for me. She doesn't have the right to speak for anyone other than herself, and she sure as HELL doesn't have a monopoly on suffering.

20/1/07 13:41  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

"You just prove my point, children. You just make me stronger."

As sorry as I am that you've had to put up with all this shit - increased blogcount notwithstanding - it's good to know you're not letting it get you down. I was a lot older than 24 before I gained anything like that kind of strength.

20/1/07 14:47  
Blogger belledame222 said...

"old soul"

20/1/07 15:11  
Blogger little light said...

hypatia's child, this may be hard to hear, but "get out of my skin, Jack" was probably a reference to an earlier slur that went on over there, where trans women were compared to Buffalo Bill from "Silence of the Lambs," the serial killer who skins women and makes a suit out of them to wear. It was presented as a difference of degree, not kind.

B. Dagger Lee, thank you for that poem. It's wonderful.

Really, thank you to everyone for your support. This is what really makes us strong. And this especially includes those of you I've had differences with in the past--I find it really heartening that we can continue to disagree and still recognize each other as real human beings with valid perspectives on the world, and that we know the difference between debate and dehumanization. This is the movement I want to be a part of. I hope we can go more constructively from here.

20/1/07 15:27  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Oh, little light. In my mind there was no "probably" about it. From the trainwreck thread over at Twisty Faster's. That's why I drew the inference that I did.

I've encountered =that= person before, on the MWMF board before it closed. To be honest it was reading that slur yet again, and then Heart's actually =endorsing= that level of hatred that pushed me over the edge.

Sadder and wiser.

20/1/07 18:24  
Blogger belledame222 said...

ugh. i remember the Buffalo Bill comment, but i didn't make that particular connection just now--not that it wasn't already more than bad enough.

they're just...charming!

20/1/07 19:16  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

I was trying to think of how to confront Heart directly about endorsing the transphobia of MS and others on her blog, but someone named pigeon has beaten me to it and is doing a very nice job of it. You have to scroll back to read the new comments.

21/1/07 09:27  
Blogger mitzibel said...

The "edited to add" section was about the funniest thing I've read all week. Then I realized that real people were spewing that ignorant b.s., and I had to have a really stiff drink.

21/1/07 09:30  
Blogger antiprincess said...

monster is as monster does.

21/1/07 13:11  
Blogger J. Goff said...

Heart(less) [thanks AK]:

I am not defending the use of any insulting or derogatory language, neither am I defending anybody’s use of it. I am saying it is different when someone with comparative privilege uses insulting or derogatory language against someone she is subjugating. It is not women who are subjugating transwomen or transmen and it never has been. It is men.

Shorter Heart: It's all good when women treat people as less than human, because men did it first.

And with that final swirl down the drain, blargh.

22/1/07 06:46  
Blogger little light said...

Piny, I think it went further than that. I checked out the response, and as far as I can tell, it actually said that it is impossible for a woman to be transphobic, if there is such a thing as transphobia.
That is: coming from a man, transphobia is actually a form of sexism, as they consider transwomen not-men and transmen do not get male privilege, according to this model, because there is No Way Out for a female--so it's actually just an unnecessary extra word for anti-woman sentiment from patriarchal men. Coming from women, it is either criticism of the futile attempt-to-gain-male-privilege of trans men or of trans women, who are males and as such have male privilege (and again the old canard about amassed male wealth came up as an example)--therefore, while she will not herself use "it" or "tranny," she considers it legitimate coming from Born Women like Mary Sunshine and Luckynkl, because from those women, it is "language of resistance"--just as people of color cannot by definition be racist toward whites or--yes--"whitephobic."

This explains how she's not transphobic, of course. There's no such thing to be.

22/1/07 06:49  
Blogger little light said...

Also, apparently, my screen name--with its usual use of lowercase letters and diminutive--is an attempt to exploit feminized language to present myself as meek and therefore position myself better for vicious attacks against radical feminists while presenting myself as a victim.

Wait--I mean, if someone were to have a two-word screen name with a diminutive word in it and lowercase letters, that unnamed person would be the sort of person who has such motives.

22/1/07 06:53  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

This explains how she's not transphobic, of course. There's no such thing to be.

I'm sorry for the pain all this is no doubt causing some transfolk, but I'm actually glad she finally just set that out clearly and definitively.

I hate to keep harping back on anti-black racism, or anti-poc in general racism as I know that, while the situations are sometimes analogous, there are also a good many differences - but, not being really familiar with trans issues or theory, that's about the only experience I have to fall back on to relate.

And it's my experience that when dealing with people like Heart (the reasonable bigots) it's always good to get the basic definitions and beliefs out of the way first, otherwise while it may appear that (generic)you agree 75% or 85% of the time with what is said, this actually may not be the case because rarely are you ever talking about the same things, even if the same words, same familiar theories or declarations are used.

"I am not transphobic and I don't approve of that sort of thing" takes on an entirely different meaning when one realizes that what that really means is "We are women born women and, as such, nothing we say, no matter how hateful, can be considered transphobic, so there is no such thing as transphobia in our circles."

Also, apparently, my screen name--with its usual use of lowercase letters and diminutive--is an attempt to exploit feminized language to present myself as meek and therefore position myself better for vicious attacks against radical feminists while presenting myself as a victim.

I saw that... thought it was an odd interpretation that probably said more about the person interpreting than about the screen name. Me, I don't usually think of women as little and meek and victims (although we are often victimized) so after reading some of the archives and comments and stuff, my word picture of your screen name was more along the lines of 'big world, big darkness, little light" .. or maybe "a little light."

22/1/07 08:20  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

I wish I'd read your analysis, little light, before submitting my latest reply to Heart on her blog because I think you've nailed it. All gender-related oppression boils down to sexism for her, so of course, females cannot possibly enjoy any privilege on that account. Not only is trans not an orthogonal axis of oppression, it's not even linearly independent.

Well, it's awaiting moderation and I'm sure will be thoroughly savaged by Heart and her supporters when she approves it, if she even does, because I'm losing patience with her too and I'm sure that will come through loud and clear.

Sigh.

22/1/07 09:26  
Blogger belledame222 said...

hat is: coming from a man, transphobia is actually a form of sexism, as they consider transwomen not-men and transmen do not get male privilege, according to this model, because there is No Way Out for a female--so it's actually just an unnecessary extra word for anti-woman sentiment from patriarchal men. Coming from women, it is either criticism of the futile attempt-to-gain-male-privilege of trans men or of trans women, who are males and as such have male privilege (and again the old canard about amassed male wealth came up as an example)--therefore, while she will not herself use "it" or "tranny," she considers it legitimate coming from Born Women like Mary Sunshine and Luckynkl, because from those women, it is "language of resistance"--just as people of color cannot by definition be racist toward whites or--yes--"whitephobic."

This explains how she's not transphobic, of course. There's no such thing to be.


"It's all falling into place! Of course, that place is nowhere near this place."

See, and this is why while i understand that sure, yep, there's a reasoning of sorts behind even the loopiest of behavior/beliefs, and it might be worthwhile for us to deconstruct it just for understanding's sake, at the end of the day it doesn't mean squat when it's this down the rabbit hole. There is a reality disconnect when someone is standing right thereas empirical proof that your theories about "those people" may in fact not be quite 100% correct; there is, yes, a moment where -choice- is possible, where you can either acknowledge the disconnect and the other's humanity, accept the only -real- hurt that is happening to you -in this transaction,- the blow to your own ego and reality construct, accept that it might mean having to reassess, you know, *work*--

or, you can decide to stick your fingers in your ears and go LALALALALALALA ever more convoluted rationalizations and justifications and increasingly desperate attempts to make reality fit your theory.

which latter path Heart has clearly chosen. which, if all she wants to do is huddle in a corner with her syocphants and lick each others' wounds forevermore, knock yourselves out. As far as convincing anyone -else- with this carnival of bullshit, though:

Forget it, Jake.

22/1/07 09:27  
Blogger belledame222 said...

I wish I'd read your analysis, little light, before submitting my latest reply to Heart on her blog because I think you've nailed it.

Then again, reading this, I realize that of course that is exactly the point of such careful analyses even this sort of insane bullshit: so other smart decent people will understand exactly -why- it is in fact insane bullshit, and therefore won't need to waste their time. So, that works, then.

22/1/07 09:29  
Blogger belledame222 said...

I think it was downright abusive. Picking someone apart on that level and making it abundantly clear that no syntax choice would have met with any sort of approval? It's nothing but an attempt to make it impossible for that person to speak.

It's positively Red-Guard-esque, is what it is. It is important to push past the content of the "criticism" in those cases and recognize this for what it is: an attempt to rhetorically pull the rug out from under the other's feet, clap hands over her ears to thoroughly remove any remaining sense of equilibrium, and then, once the person is lying dazed on the floor, quickly move to make sure she -stays- down.

22/1/07 09:37  
Blogger belledame222 said...

"I am not transphobic and I don't approve of that sort of thing" takes on an entirely different meaning when one realizes that what that really means is "We are women born women and, as such, nothing we say, no matter how hateful, can be considered transphobic, so there is no such thing as transphobia in our circles."

Well, and it's also the classic language of bigots everywhere. I mean, no one is -ever- a -real- bigot, right? Michael Richards: not a -real- racist. Mel Gibson: not a -real- anti-Semite. and so on, and so on, and so on. All it really means is that they understand that "bigot" (transphobe, racist, whatever) equals "bad person," and they are not, cannot, can never be "bad people," because who is? (except for THEM of course); QED.

22/1/07 09:39  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

I really do think it's a good idea to try and understand other people's points of view and the reasoning, emotional or rational or both, that's leading them there. Just in general, right? And I mean, saltyC is a really interesting example of someone who sat down and did this in a really profound, emotional way and decided her previous attitudes were transphobic. So I'm glad there is analysis going on and thinking about this stuff happening, and that it's not all just to refute but also to understand.

Of course, sometimes when you start to get where someone's coming from, and see things laid out more, you're just even more repulsed and confused.

For instance, now I see that part of this whole thing relies on the idea that women can't be transphobic (just like POCs can't be racist, and even pointing out that this is a borrowed concept). And that in turn is based on some other assumptions: that trans women are people who enjoy the fruits of male privilege, and that trans men can never really get male privilege. It's these two assumptions, especially the latter one, that are so totally thoroughly baffling bercause they're so disconnected from reality. I can look around my world and see so many examples, on the ground, in real life, representing a substantial portion of trans people in this country, because hey, there are not THAT many of us -- that completely prove this wrong. Trans guys don't receive male privilege? Even ones that pass thoroughly and hardly ever talk about being trans, or never do? Maybe I'm missing where there's the old boys club that does checks for testicular cancer at the door. Amazing.

22/1/07 10:02  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

This whole line of arguments also points it out pretty clearly to me that maybe not analysis has been done, or at least not talked about, of what the relationship between sexism and transphobia is. Is transphobia just a form of sexism, and if so, does that mean only men can perpetrate it because sexism is by men, at women (or at least at not-men)? Or are we talking about something different here? Is the logical device of "A is a subset of B" kind of failing us, as many classical-logic ways of juggling categories tend to?

If we can agree, for a moment at least, that sexism is one name of "oppression of women and privileging of men" then what is "transphobia" at that institutional level? If you take out all the baggage around what "trans" means or who's trans and who's not -- what is the social force acting here? If you ask me, it has to do with social institutions and systems attacking the "improperly formed" which includes people who weren't "properly socialized" for their gender, who express gender in ways that are considered inappropriate or don't conform to standards, who don't stay within the bounds of the category assigned to them at birth.

Looking at it this way we can see the overlaps with homophobia as well, which has also been described as a side-effect, or part of, a larger sexist system.

However, here is the interesting thing. Of course, not all women are subjected to homophobia. You can deal with sexism every day of your life, but if the subject of your love and affection is a man, you will at least avoid dealing with what we call homophobia (which might be part of sexism, let's just assume it's at least related for now). The same is true of "transphobia" or whatever we want to call the social punishments targeting the non-conforming. A woman can avoid this all her life, and conform, and of course she will still be targeted by sexism, some would say even more so, in ways, because she is following certain rules. But other women are affected very differently, because they don't conform to standards of womanliness.

I think this distinction between "sexism" as an overarching oppression of women, and oppression of those who don't conform to the system, MUST have been made before in feminist theory. (In fact I'm sure I'm picking it up from somewhere, probably second-hand.) Which is why it's shocking to see so much sloppiness around these ideas going on at Heart's blog, where people are insisting on one hand that women who present more masculinely are always rewarded for it (oops, ask Sakia Gunn about it, except you can't, she's dead) and on the other that trans men, even ones who pass gender tests for masculinely with flying colors, never get male privilege.

There's a fundamental disconnect and oversimplification of what sexism is, as much as saying that women can't be homophobic (towards other women, even?) because homophobia is part of sexism, and women can't be sexist. Nobody would really buy that, at least not at face value. But of course the rules change if you can start calling the Othered people "fake" in some way, which used to be possible with lesbians as well, but now trans people have taken that place.

22/1/07 10:14  
Blogger lovelesscynic said...

Yo, Little Light, I'm, like, totally offended by your appropriation of the use of sarcasm in response to an attack of some white woman. This is clearly a reference to Margaret Cho's response to Gwen Stefani's defense of her use of Japanese women as fashion accessories. In which she also uses the strategy of a sarcastic acknowledgment of her faulty thinking. Truly, you really should reference ALL your sources.
(I'm being sarcastic.)

Seriously though, I don't normally comment on other people's blogs, but I've been following this for a week. And just wanted to say, I thought your piece was pretty cool and well written. I enjoyed it a lot. The rest of the stuff I would say, other people have already said here a hundred times.

22/1/07 14:42  
Blogger Drakyn said...

Hello, I'm a lurker just chiming in. I've been reading since the Twisty "dicussion", but I didn't really post anywhere.
Has anyone here read the Cisgendered Privilege Checklist? FTMichael has it on his page here: http://nbtsc.org/~ftmichael/privilege.html

Here are a few that perhaps Heart and the others on her blog should take a look at:
14) My experience of gender (or gendered spaces) is not viewed as "baggage" by others of the gender in which I live.

15) I do not have to choose between either invisibility ("passing") or being consistently "othered" and/or tokenized based on my gender.

21) I am not required to undergo extensive psychological evaluation in order to receive basic medical care.

22) The medical establishment does not serve as a "gatekeeper" which disallows self-determination of what happens to my body.

23) People do not use me as a scapegoat for their own unresolved gender issues.


I'd also like to thank everyone here for speaking up so elequently against bigotry (no matter how reasonable they may sound).

22/1/07 16:18  
Blogger Nanette said...

I think it was downright abusive.

Yes. I'd say a good portion of that thread is abusive.

22/1/07 18:17  
Blogger J. Goff said...

Yes. I'd say a good portion of that thread is abusive.

It reads like a standard Freepi thread pretty much all the way through, doesn't it? And Rich, I think I'm just going to stick to "sycophantic bigot" for you, bucko.

22/1/07 18:37  
Blogger Ravenmn said...

I find it interesting that there is an explanation for the "it's not hate speech" idea. I disagree, but it's interesting that the excuse was provided.

I'm not as eloquent as Little Light or Holly, but I've posted my I am Spartacus! comments at my blog.

22/1/07 20:50  
Blogger belledame222 said...

nice update, LL...

23/1/07 07:57  
Blogger belledame222 said...

her latest response in there really sums it up (i mean the disconnect, not the utter disingenuous asshattery, that's in a class by itself). Women don't self-identify, they are given the identity. But what on earth makes her think that that isn't true for--

well. the whole frigging -point- of this piece is that the identity a lot of transfolk and other gender nonconformists is, as just demonstrated by the charming Mary Sunshine in that thread, "it."

-and- anyone who -isn't- a MAN BABY is relegated to "feminine" and thus "inferior." That's true of all genderqueer/non conforming/in-between/transitioned-who-don't-or-won't-pass 100% folks, that's true of any man who doesn't measure up to Real Man standards (gay, into traditionally-womens'-gendered clothing too sensitive, too this or that or anything else). That IS the fucking patriarchy. That means -all- of those of us who are deemed Not Men are ALLIES. in it together. or damn well should be.

but -besides- that, that is, once again, to miss the entire fucking point of LL's poem, which is that she is reclaiming the right to name -herself.- And Heart is attempting to trample on that, because she is policing Real Womanhood in the same way patriarchy-upholding men police Real Manhood; and for that, she can suck -my- delicate feminine cock.

23/1/07 09:31  
Blogger belledame222 said...

and yeah, of course it's not hate speech, who would say "yes, it is hate speech, i am a hater, and i am Proud"? no one who wanted any cred anywhere outside the most radical fringes of the extreme right-wing movements. and even there, if you notice, there is ALWAYS interwoven among the "we are the Ubermenschen!" crap a healthy wallop of self-pity. we're just, we're just. we're just taking back what's ours. we're just defending ourselves from the Invaders and those who Tell Lies about Us and would Have Us Destroyed. we live on the margins, driven there by the forces of darkness. we must have Lebensraum.

and, oddly enough, that -always- involves kicking sideways or down, at the genuinely marginalized people who had very few other places to turn, christ forbid directly taking on the Powers That Be, except to rail and raise fists in Their general direction. i mean, how can little ol' us take on The Powers That Be? we have no power.

bullshit.

23/1/07 09:36  
Blogger Dw3t-Hthr said...

Women don't self-identify, they are given the identity.

I'm gonna take that off, set it up next to the monster piece I just posted over at my own place last night, and kinda giggle a little, I think.

Sometimes it doesn't take.

23/1/07 09:46  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Yep.

I was thinking last night about that quote that's always incorrectly attributed to Mandela, about our greatest fear being of our own power. So much of what i see over on that site is just the flip side of that, I think. They're so afraid of their own power that they have to position themselves at the bottom of the pecking order to deny it. Because if they realised their own power, how their hateful words might actually *hurt* a real, vulnerable person, or a group of people they don't belong to and don't understand, they wouldn't dare utter them.

I don't think so, anyway.

23/1/07 11:30  
Blogger Dw3t-Hthr said...

hypatia's child --

That's pretty much why the Feri tradition (a particular pagan religious witchcraft form) is big on understanding and embracing personal power, among other traits. Because there's so much cultural warping around power, it's actively difficult for people to possess their own and not abuse it.

I should probably write about that over in my own space, at some point; working with power and the concepts thereof is one of my little hobbies.

23/1/07 12:44  
Blogger belledame222 said...

yah, it's not Mandela, i's wossname, Marianne Williamson. anyway, yeah, i think that's a good call. huddle in the Margins. cling to the pain; it might just be scarier to let some of it go, after all.

23/1/07 14:54  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

The thing that really kills me about this whole discussion is the way that Heart is actually victimizing herself and rolling over in the face of what she obviously considers oppression.

As babies we are assigned a feminine and "inferior" identity? Fine. Then why isn't she arguing for a genderless society, instead of one with women only?

Sexism targets all women. Fine. Then why don't we accept it as a fact of life, stop bemoaning it, and instead try to do something about it?

I see nothing constructive in Heart's arguments that transpeople cannot be "more oppressed" than women. I don't think that women are more oppressed than transpeople -- at least we have the OPTION of fitting in to the "traditional" gender hierarchy if we so choose, an option which is largely inaccessible to transpeople in the process of transition -- but even presuming that Heart's decision is true, I don't think that any symbol can "belong" to any group. Language and symbol is universal.

BUT. Even if all these things are true, what do they matter? Both women and transpeople are still oppressed when it comes down to it. Why can't Heart quit whining -- and I'm not saying that it's not important to point out instances of oppression, but only that there's a point at which it becomes purely self-indulgent to wallow -- and actually work to fix the problem?

(Phew. I needed to get that off my chest.)

26/1/07 00:28  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Are you well-educated folks enjoying yourselves, with your elitist cracks about those low class riff-raff over at Margins, not knowing who Cybele is? I suppose it didn't occur to you how many people you insult with your classist bullshit when you cast such a wide net, huh?

1--Heart DID NOT accuse anyone of plagiarism.

2--Heart is entitled to see similarities wherever she pleases. I still think the first few bars to the LAW AND ORDER theme is identical to the first few bars of Aerosmith's "Janie got a gun", but I am apparently the only person to think so, since nobody got sued over it. Nonetheless, it sounds the same to me, and I will maintain it IS until I am lowered into the grave. I have that right. Disagree all you want, but I DO have the right to think so. So does Heart.

3--FTR, I disagree with Heart about the Robin Morgan poem, as I disagree with her about a lot of things. Then, I come over here and read this disgusting, hateful vitriol. The accusations of racism are most egregious. Excuse me, but which of you had mixed-raced children back when there were still anti-miscegenation laws on the books? Can I ask what each of you have DONE politically, in the past three decades (yes, I said DECADES) besides sit in front of a computer and gleefully trash someone who put their life on the line for the causes you CLAIMS you believe in? Let's start with some easy stuff: How many signatures on petitions have you all gathered in your lifetimes, just by estimation? How many neighborhoods, small towns and schools have you desegregated lately? How many candidates have you worked for? How many publications have you been responsible for creating and publishing yourself? Those should be some easy starters.

IMHO, if you can't answer any of those questions, you are not in Heart's league, sorry, and you have no business dictating to her what her politics should be. Earn some respect by actually doing something and then we'll talk. (What are you pumped-up, self-righteous radicals doing to end the war, for instance?)

4--Heart is NOT THE ENEMY. NOT. THE. ENEMY. Do you realize that you have shown far more hatred for Heart and expend far more words, energy and space trashing her here, than I have ever seen any of you trash Dubya, Rumsfeld, Pastor Ted Haggard, Rush Limbaugh, Bill O'Reilly? (If I am mistaken, show me the post about one of those men that has this many replies.) Why? I think you all find it easier to dump on a sister feminist and call your trashing "revolutionary" than to actually have to do something that might have real-life consequences.
It's "revolutionary" to raise hell at Camp Trans, attacking feminists, than to raise hell at St. Patrick's Cathedral, as ACT-UP had the chutzpah to do. Why don't you all attack some truly bad-ass transphobic institution like the Army, Navy, Air Force, Marines, Coast Guard, the House and the Senate, the Church, schools, La Migra, etc. which do not recognize transgendered rights? Why isn't Camp Trans outside the Pentagon or the State Capitols? They won't let you in either, you know. Are you TOO SCARED to actually confront the big white guys with guns? Yeah, let's go yell at some GIRLS, with no guns to protect them. Real fucking brave, that is. HORIZONTAL HOSTILITY, people. It does not become you.

I'm sure this comment won't make it past moderation, but I had to get it off my chest, too.

26/1/07 15:44  
Blogger belledame222 said...

This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.

26/1/07 18:41  
Blogger belledame222 said...

This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.

26/1/07 18:49  
Blogger belledame222 said...

oh, you know what: never mind.

"what piny said."

26/1/07 19:32  
Blogger little light said...

Old Lady Sadie, I'm going to address a few of your points, though I feel piny has addressed a lot of them, honestly.

I'm sure this comment won't make it past moderation
I haven't moderated any comments in this thread, including the ones by people like Luckynkl who came in for no other reason than to insult me. Nobody here speaks for me but me. Saying what you just said comes off mostly as a passive-aggressive accusation that I brook nothing but groupthink; honestly, I've never had to delete a comment on this blog yet. I'd rather people talk them over and fight free speech they don't like with more free speech when possible. Now, there's no reason you have to believe I'm telling the truth here, but that's been a theme here, hasn't it?

Are you well-educated folks enjoying yourselves, with your elitist cracks about those low class riff-raff over at Margins, not knowing who Cybele is?
Hi, yeah, no. That piece of rhetoric got brought in because Heart claimed I had no right to make references to Cybele because She didn't belong to me, as a trans woman, but to radical feminist literature. The crowd at the Margins brought that into the argument, not me, and they claimed all rights to Cybele, among others, and said I should not be allowed to use any imagery relating to goddesses and female mythological figures. And I'm the one who's being an elitist for pointing out that the figures they're claiming are figures they've either never heard of or know nothing about? For pointing out, for instance, the historically transgendered priesthood of Cybele, for instance? That's not elitism; that's explaining and defending myself. When I'm told I should not even be allowed to mention an obscure goddess like Kapo 'ula-kina'u, to whom I am religiously devoted and of whom I doubt any of them has ever heard, simply because She is a female divinity, it's not elitism on my part to point out they don't know what they're talking about. When I'm told that I can't have my Pacific-Islander ass praying to or writing about a Pacific-Islander deity because some white American woman called pre-emptive dibs on any goddess she may ever hear about in the future, I'm not the one setting up the elite, and it's not because of my education or their lack (I don't know what their backgrounds are anyhow) that I think it's objectionable nonsense.

Heart DID NOT accuse anyone of plagiarism.
Right. She just implied that I was taking the ideas and phrasing of another woman's work without credit, and suggested I come clean and admit to doing so, without using the word plagiarism, and then complimented people who did use the word 'plagiarism.' Then she left a comment suggesting that anyone who linked to me be told about my misdeed and the 'true' source of my ideas. And then, when that was shot down, the accusation was changed to 'appropriation.' How does this not add up to an accusation of plagiarism, in your mind?

Heart is entitled to see similarities wherever she pleases.
Of course she is. I also have the right to defend myself and say that I think she's wrong. She can think whatever she pleases about me. Conducting a campaign to paint me as a liar and a thief is not a nice thing to do, but technically that's within her rights, too. I have the right to think it's wrong, however, and I have the right to argue about it. I wrote my piece, on its own, and I've never bothered her or gone out of my way to make trouble with her. We've argued on other people's blogs, especially when she makes statements about my demographic that I feel the need to register disagreement about, but I have always respected her space, her rules about who is allowed to discuss there, and her right to her opinions. That doesn't mean I don't have the right to stand up for myself when she decides to come here, out of the blue, and attempt to smear me, my work, and my reputation. How is my standing up for myself and defending my point of view an attempt to take away her right to think what she wants? Would the best way to respect her ability to see what she pleases be to roll over and say that she has carte blanche to say whatever she likes about me, and never speak up? Where does my right to think what I want, as well, come into this?

Can I ask what each of you have DONE politically, in the past three decades (yes, I said DECADES) besides sit in front of a computer and gleefully trash someone who put their life on the line for the causes you CLAIMS you believe in? ... Those should be some easy starters.
In case you missed it, I am a very young adult. I don't think I can be nailed for not being alive in the Seventies any more than I can be nailed for not parenting yet. That said, where do you get off trying to call out my activist cred, as though that determines whether or not I'm allowed to have an opinion?
That said, you know what, for the record? I've put my life on the line for this cause and others plenty-blogging is a new addition to the suite of things I do as an activist. I've strapped on a medical kit and body armor and waded into a riot to treat the wounds of people marching for peace and stood on the frontlines of demonstrations against neo-Nazi skinheads ready to defend other folk against armed assault. I've charged police lines. I volunteer with the homeless, where I'm proud to say I've directly saved at least one life. In the past year I've made charitable donations even when I was in debt and barely able to make my rent. I've written letters to the newspaper, helped print literature, circulated petitions, written columns, and helped register voters. I was standing up with a megaphone defending abortion rights in my teens, okay? And you know what else I did to try and stop this war, leaving aside everything I've done since to try and put an end to it? I put myself in the way of direct physical harm, and was rewarded for it, after a long, freezing night of pepper spray, flashbang grenades, and truncheons, by going to jail and getting threatened with rape by police. And yes, watching another teenage trans woman in there with me endure their sexual, verbal, and physical assault the whole while. So I'm sorry I've only got about a decade of activism under my belt to show you, but I'm twenty-four, and I'm working on it. Step off.

And as to racism? Are you honestly telling me I, a person of color, have no right to call a white person on her racial privilege when I feel I'm at the business end of it?

I just don't get where you think my defending my point of view, especially when what I'm defending myself from is an unprovoked accusation from her in a dispute she chose to start, is an attempt to dictate her politics. She can go on doing whatever she likes, but her right to swing her fist ends at my nose. Heart's politics become my business when what I'm actually criticizing is her behavior in coming after me. And I will not refuse to speak up in my own defense just because she pretends I'm trying to tell her what to think.

Heart is NOT THE ENEMY. NOT. THE. ENEMY. Do you realize that you have shown far more hatred for Heart and expend far more words, energy and space trashing her here, than I have ever seen any of you trash Dubya, Rumsfeld, Pastor Ted Haggard, Rush Limbaugh, Bill O'Reilly?
I would love to get back to the business of blogging about building movements, creative work, the religious left, anti-racism, and politics. I knew Heart had the opinions she has, and I never came after her. I was busy on the pavement, doing my work, thanks. And this? This has been a pretty phenomenal distraction from what I would rather be doing--fighting for human equality. But when someone tries to tell me I have no right to my own work, culture, religion, literary roots, and so on--and not only that, decides to Let the Internet Know that I'm doing awful things, I have the right to argue. And I don't see that I had another choice, except to lie down and let her accusations and those of her commenters go unchallenged and to buy into the notion that I should have no voice.

Where's the horizontal hostility? I never wanted to start anything with Heart. I never wanted to start anything with radical feminism. I worked hard on a personal, creative piece and put it where people could see it. They framed it as an attack on radical feminism and on all women, and made this into a fight. And then, when I stand up for myself, I'm told that all my politics are ever about is attacking radical feminists, that even my screen name is a carefully-chosen ploy to put me in a good position to go after radical feminists, and that my existing and talking is an attempt to silence them.

Hypatia's Child went over there and left a polite comment asking that trans people not be called "it" and that the language maybe be a little less dehumanizing. She was accused of attempting to control the debate and dictate what language people used. When someone else asked how comments about us as hacked-up abominations were considered not transphobic, the reply was that if it comes from a woman, it's "language of resistance" against an oppressor and that it's an attempt to oppress them to ask them to tone it down.
If someone were using racial slurs about me, would my asking them not to call me 'gook' and 'spic' and 'kike' be considered an attempt to control how they think?
I think that whole line of argument is disingenuous, frankly. You can't hit someone in the face, and then tell them they shouldn't hit back--or, in my case, so much as block--because more terrible violence is going on elsewhere in the world. And if you drag someone out of a peace march to hit them, and then tell them when they shove you off that clearly all their politics are about messing with you and don't they care about nonviolence? then...well: How does that make sense?

26/1/07 20:18  
Blogger Plain(s)feminist said...

Wow. Y'know, Old Lady Sadie, someone recently reminded me on my own blog, when I was having a cow about people freaking out about trans infiltration instead of doing something meaningful, that I shouldn't assume that because a person spent time online I knew what else they were doing with their time. It was a good reminder.

The accusations of racism are most egregious. Excuse me, but which of you had mixed-raced children back when there were still anti-miscegenation laws on the books?

This is not a comment about Heart. It's a comment about your logic. Are we saying, then, that anti-racism = having mixed race children? Or just having them when it was illegal? Because this strikes me - either way - as merely a variation on "but my best friend is Black, so I can't be racist!"

Can I ask what each of you have DONE politically, in the past three decades (yes, I said DECADES) besides sit in front of a computer and gleefully trash someone who put their life on the line for the causes you CLAIMS you believe in? Let's start with some easy stuff: How many signatures on petitions have you all gathered in your lifetimes, just by estimation? How many neighborhoods, small towns and schools have you desegregated lately? How many candidates have you worked for? How many publications have you been responsible for creating and publishing yourself? Those should be some easy starters.

God, I would love it if we would have conversations like that instead of conversations like these. Wouldn't it be great to focus on what we were doing for the cause instead of tearing each other apart?

But in all fairness, did you read the comments on Heart's blog in which CM - apparently a white woman - complained about not being able to call herself "culturally black" without annoying women of color? And in which a woman of color who tried to respond to what CM had said - which, frankly, was racist - had her comment deleted? And then, when that woman tried to clarify what she had said, tried to talk to CM, CM freaked out, became incensed at having been called racist - and said that Heart's blog was predominantly a white space, and that it was white people's jobs to educate each other, and therefore this woman of color should, presumably, leave? And the end result of this was for Heart to continually side with CM and to institute a new comments policy to protect CM and others from these sorts of "attacks"?

How is that not racist? I'm quite sure that Heart has done all the things that you suggest and more. I'm not trying to paint her as horrible or inhuman or whatever. But this was a racist act, which goes to show that no matter how anti-racist a person might be, it is still possible to do something racist. And that goes for all of us.

And so we can't say, "oh, but she did x, y, and z, so this other action can't be racist." We're still responsible for the things we do.

26/1/07 23:15  
Blogger belledame222 said...

#

The people we are fighting? Some of them are people whose pinheaded, self-serving, academented “analysis” it is that women “choose” to participate in beauty contests to get an education, or they “choose” to be prostituted to get an education, or they “choose” to participate in relationships which celebrate submission and dominance, and many of them are the same people who say our commitment to end sexism is “transphobic,” many of these people are the same people whose ideas are responsible for the fact that *things aren’t as different now for women as they were 20 years ago*. And *that* is the reasons for these discussions.

In point of fact, right now, to be dedicated to an end to sexism and to gender, full stop, is to be relentlessly excoriated by people who call that “transphobic” and a whole lot of other nasty things and a lot of those people are MEN who do not care one whit if anything ever changes for women, they want the clock turned back hundreds of years to the time when they owned us outright.

Really, I won’t have that kind of thing on this blog, the way when it begins to become evident that radical feminism has been lied about, maligned, misunderstood, when the lights go on and people start to bail because they realize they don’t have any good response to what has been offered, others come in wanting to talk about radical feminism being all about “theory” and no action, when *in fact* radical feminists are responsible for *revolution for women in our time* and if misogynists of all and every stripe would get the fuck out of the way with their misogynist ideas and behaviors and projects which they think are oh-so-”progressive,” and “transgressive,” even though they take us back to pre-feminism days, we might be able to actually *finish* the revolution we fucking began.

Sorry for my intensity but not really. This is TRUE.

...

It is females, by and large, who are victims of the language of queer and the transgender movement. That is because, again, the language of queer and transgender makes the lived realities of females as a subordinated category invisible.

Men are not at all victims in this particular scenario. They benefit. They benefit.

Heart


Is this what you're going off of, ols? Are you noticing the part where she -blames queer and transgendered people- for "getting in the way" of the "revolution" the radical feminists "started?" Do you really believe this?

You mention ACT-UP; you understand that in fact, that -is- street activism, not "academentia;"

and furthermore, it is Heart and her ilk who keep relentlessly insisting on comparing "radical feminism" to "transgender;" as people--you know, actual TG people, whom Heart continually refuses to engage, (have you noticed that she's yet to address Little Light directly? anywhere? at all?) with the exception of people who practically kill themselves trying not to respond to the bait of being called "it," being compared to "Buffalo Bill" and "nutjobs who should be in straitjackets" and trying to reach out to Heart and her ilk again, again, again, only to get the most shocking abuse--by men, no less, did you see Rich's latest comments?--for it--

comparing "radical feminism" to "transgender." which is you know roughly equivalent to comparing "fundamentalist Christianity" with "gay." One is an ideology, yes, learned in books or otherwise. A belief. "Transgender," like "gay," is one name for a core identity. Arguing about the names might be theoretical. The actual -lives- and -experiences- of trangendered (and gay, and queer) people? Not so much. But that is exactly how Heart and her ilk keep talking: as though transgendered people ought to change their entire lives to fit her -belief.- or else suffer her wrath, and that of "radical feminists."

This is, you know, besides everything else: not a sane or reasonable response.

She acts as though Little Light's piece, of -all- things she could have chosen to focus on, is a personal attack--on her, as a radical feminist, as a woman. Most people, even if they couldn't or wouldn't recognize LL's piece for the strong and self-affirming, -life- affirming writing that it was, might at least choose to you know ignore it, seeing as how it actually had -nothing to do with Heart or radical feminism.- But, no; it has to be about radical feminism; Heart inserts herself. And then complains when she doesn't like the response. Well, tough.

And by the way, speaking of fundamentalism? activism and so on? it's a bit rich for Heart to be claiming ownership of the pioneering radical feminists, since during their heyday, as I understand it, she was in fact an activist for the Christian right.

and funnily enough, i don't imagine she was much more of a friend to "queer theory" or actual y'know queer -people- than she is now.

She has no fucking call, speaking of "appropriation." The woman spends most of her life awash in hetero privilege and gender-congruent privilege (yes, there really is such a thing) and actively upholding the "patriarchy" she's now so passionately against (because of course it or rather the patriarchal community she was a part of hurt her, personally, finally, and that's VERY DIFFERENT FOR FUCK'S SAKE); and now she's a "political lesbian," who funnily enough still doesn't seem to recognize or understand about y'know nonheteronormative -desire,- which is in fact a separate thing from simply "abstaining from men;" and is still presuming to tell other queer yes i said queer people how to self-identify, how to have sex, what else to do or not to do with -their own bodies,- who is and isn't a true ally...

please. my best friend is a gay man; my people, my allies are other queer folk; they, too, are hurt by "patriarchy." maybe not all of us in exactly the same way, but y'know that is the beauty of democracy: we don't have to all have exactly the same experience in order to recognize each other's legitimacy and humanness.

do not come in here and try to tell me who is and isn't my friend, thank you very much. I have eyes and ears and skin and guts, too.

also, occasionally some people like to enjoy ourselves, have a laugh and a decent fuck, look toward something -besides- the pain the pain the pain. which is exactly what LL's post was about, and maybe just maybe is the -real- reason why Heart objected to it so strongly. Because it's an affirmation of life in a way that Heart just hasn't tweaked, in all her years of activism and passion and various sorts of spiritual hooha.

So she tries to piss on it, and then plays the martyr when people call her on it. This, too, is not new behavior for her. Seriously, as Little Light says: why are we talking about her at all? Oh, right, because--there is just no other way to put this: she started it.

Not the enemy? Well, as LL says, you bet there are more important battles out there, but it is not remotely reasonable to expect someone to to just smile and accept it when someone comes up and kicks her on the shin; and then to top it off keeps wailing about how her foot hurts and it's all the shin-bearing person's fault. Forget it, Jake.

Whatever else she is, she ain't a friend, either, or a sister. Friends behave like friends. Sisters behave like sisters. And narcissists behave like narcissts.
And, they're really, really tiring.

"With friends like this, who needs enemas?"

27/1/07 04:14  
Blogger belledame222 said...

oh yah, and: funnily enough, even if Heart were able to make a claim for having marched shoulder to shoulder with Robin Morgan and all the rest of em right from the beginning: in fact, "radical feminism" is not synonymous with "feminism," much less "being a woman."

"Finish the revolution 'we' started?" Seriously, can she hear herself? The world's a far bigger and older place, there.

27/1/07 04:16  
Blogger belledame222 said...

Group helplessness and rage

The narcissistically injured on the other hand, cannot rest until he has blotted out a vaguely experienced offender who dared to oppose him, to disagree with him, or to outshine him. ..It can never find rest because it can never wipe out the evidence that has contradicted its conviction it is unique and perfect. This archaic rage goes on and on and on. Furthermore, the enemy who calls forth the archaic rage of the narcissistically vulnerable is seen by him not as an autonomous source of impulsions, but as a flaw in a narcissistically perceived reality. The enemy is experienced as a recalcitrant part of an expanded self over which the narcissistically vulnerable person had expected to exercise full control. The mere fact, in other words, that the other person is independent or different is experienced as offensive by those with intense narcissistic needs.

Thus, not being in full control over self and over a narcissistically experienced world gives the afflicted individual an experience of utter powerlessness. Such powerlessness and the sense of helplessness via-a-vis the world are unbearably traumatic experiences that must be ended by any means whatsoever. The offending other must be wiped out.

Narcissistic rage occurs in many forms. They all share, however, a specific psychological flavor which gives them a distinct position within the wide realm of human aggressions. The need for revenge, for righting a wrong, for undoing a hurt by whatever means, and a deeply anchored, unrelenting compulsion in the pursuit of all these aims, which gives no rest to those who have suffered a narcissistic injury -these are the characteristic features of narcissistic rage in all its forms and which set it apart from other kinds of aggression.

Although everybody tends to react to narcissistic injuries with embarrassment and anger, the most intense experiences of shame and the most violent forms of narcissistic rage arise in those individuals for whom a sense of absolute control over an archaic environment is indispensable because the maintenance of self-esteem - and indeed of the self - depends on the unconditional availability of the approving-mirroring selfobject or of the merger-permitting idealized one."

...The political arena allows many individuals to act out narcissistic rage as members of a group. We can understand this better when we remember that individuals who experience themselves as powerless often identify with groups by joining them. Groups that appear to have some power become seductively attractive to the narcissistic individual who is trying to escape the feeling of powerlessness. They experience the group power as their own power and any threat to the group power is experienced as an unbearable threat to their own self which then evokes unlimited rage in defense of self. Common are the hatreds that groups carry for other groups whom, rightly or wrongly, they perceive as threats to their very existence. They kill and destroy without mercy while at the same time enjoying a feeling of righteous triumph over a threatening enemy. Think of the racial assaults and the ethnic hatreds that have resulted in so much cruelty and bloodshed during the 20th century. The most minor infractions of the order established by one group could lead to an extremist massacre of even totally uninvolved and innocent outsiders. A lynching could be precipitated by as little as an assertive look or word that was equated with a threat to the established authority of the group or its leaders. The lynching mob was partially driven by an inner experience of rage in defense of a disorganized and therefore vulnerable self that felt itself challenged into potential fragmentation by the supposed offender.

What I have just described so dramatically often manifests as a less extreme form of narcissistic rage. The same dynamics, however, can be observed commonly almost every day in much more subtle and less dramatic forms...

...What can be done? Our psychological reasoning would lead us to believe that in order to reduce the rage one must try to reduce the experience of helplessness and substitute gradually an experience of having some power. The first step would seem to be an effort to really listen to each other and try to understand the other’s experience. To really feel one is being seen, being listened to most often leads to feeling understood. The experience of being understood is a self-empowering experience. We know that from working with individuals who, when they feel understood in treatment, they immediately grow stronger. But it seems that very few negotiators know this fundamental psychological truth. They usually go into negotiations with the agenda of showing how right they are and how wrong the other side is. They demand to be heard but don’t want to really listen and understand.

Politics is the arena in which skilful negotiation is the hallmark of success. Politics is concerned with the art and science of governing while the psychology of the self is concerned with recognizing and understanding one’s own sense of self and that of others. Governing, of course, has to do with the exercise of power by individuals and by groups. one’s experience of self (my shorthand for sense of self) may sometimes be enhanced via political action or circumstance, and, on the other hand, indeed, sometimes such political events may impair one’s sense of self. It is an interactive relationship of reciprocating influences such that human action to augment the self may on the surface appear merely to be directed toward changing a political situation. It seems obvious that the ability to govern depends on the availability and exercise of power. Less obvious is an individual self’s need to possess and exercise a certain amount of power to guarantee the maintenance of its cohesion and boundaries, even its continuation as a separate and distinct self. As already discussed, the loss of power which usually is associated with being subjected to some sort of feeling helpless is for most human beings an unbearable experience. It evokes an overwhelming desire to wipe out the offending source of the threatened helplessness.


******

and once again: notice the rage at the people who claim that "choice" is possible; because anyone claiming any sort of agency, ability to -make- a choice--and Heart makes no distinction between a particular woman who says, very specifically, "This is my choice" and anyone saying (this would be more understandable for her to object to) "Everything that ever happens to a woman happens because she chose it."

because it's all for one and one for all; and if anyone claims that "choice" is possible for any woman, why, Heart's entire worldview and reason to go on crumbles: and we can't have that, can we.

She's very big on "no power," is Heart.

I do not think that word means what she thinks it means.

27/1/07 04:51  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Little Light, danke for answering directly. And as to this:

"That said, where do you get off trying to call out my activist cred, as though that determines whether or not I'm allowed to have an opinion?"

Of course you are allowed to have an opinion. However, I don't particularly respect radical political opinions from someone who hasn't done any political work or engaged in activism. Status ain't hood, and mere "identities" (and Heart and I have identities, too, believe it or not) can change on a dime. OTOH, political engagement in the real world has lasting consequences. These words on the screen are impermanent and like shadows, to me anyway.

That said, LL is the only person who replied to that question. No political work from anyone else? Just sitting in front of the screen? Inhabiting a certain identity, whatever it is, is simply not sufficient for political work, all by itself, although that appears to be the conceit many young radicals have these days.

Plain(s) feminist: "God, I would love it if we would have conversations like that instead of conversations like these. Wouldn't it be great to focus on what we were doing for the cause instead of tearing each other apart?"

Yes, I would like to get back to this, please. The fascist warmongers are loose on the land, and it is time to rise up and have revolution. I am one of the (few? only?) who finds the whole transgender thing a big snooze. Yawn. Okay, it's all been said, let's get back to work now. If people can't get along, go your corners!!!!!! I am SO TIRED OF THIS. Angry Grandma bellow: First one who says TRANS again, gets the switch! I think there are times and places in which being trans can be radical and good to dissect, but I think the saturation point was reached a long time ago, here in Blogdonia. Am I allowed to point out that PEOPLE ARE BEING SLAUGHTERED IN OUR NAME? WITH OUR MONEY!!!? I think a lot of this is mere navel-gazing. You know? That is how I feel. I am shocked at the scant numbers I had recently at an anti-war meeting. And before any of you say that isn't a trans/queer issue, I hope you realize closeted trans/queer people are dying just like everyone else over there?

On a personal note, it is both nauseating and amusing that I had this very same social role of haranguing people during the last interminable war, endlessly barking at them to shut up and write about Henry Kissinger instead of each other. The more things change, the more they stay the same. :(

"But in all fairness, did you read the comments on Heart's blog in which CM - apparently a white woman - complained about not being able to call herself "culturally black" without annoying women of color?"

Did it annoy you when Toni Morrison said this about Bill Clinton? Was she racist? I think it's interesting Morrison got a pass (from the left; the right ate her for dinner) for saying a white male president was culturally black, while CM isn't supposed to. (I assume the popularizing of this "culturally black" idea started with Morrison's remarks, or maybe the New York Times babbling about Eminem, since I believe their writer used the same phrase? I admit, I don't know, but that was my assumption and the only other two times I have heard the term.)

BD: "And by the way, speaking of fundamentalism? activism and so on? it's a bit rich for Heart to be claiming ownership of the pioneering radical feminists, since during their heyday, as I understand it, she was in fact an activist for the Christian right".

Heart was a radfem who turned fundie, then came back. It's an interesting trajectory. I assume a lot of feminists did this; did you read Andrea Dworkin's RIGHT WING WOMEN? It's a protection racket, and I understand why, but don't approve of course. I think Heart is just the person to convert the fundies, and I am personally welcoming of any of them who defect. As Chairman Mao said, go for the weakest link. A lot of these women on the right, are profoundly uncomfortable with intolerant politics and/or war. We need to change hearts and minds. And that expression, I always thought, is where Heart got her name. (She wasn't Catholic, so it isn't "Sacred Heart" or anything.) BD, you sound like you are writing off the women/gays on the right. I never have and never will. Heart is proof that we should never stop arguing with them, something may take root and bloom years later. I have seen them defect, and once they do, you have a gem. They understand the weaknesses of the right wing from the inside!

I didn't know Heart has become a political lesbian, but I personally feel every radical feminist should try that for awhile to see if it fits. Why not? Who cares? I think "appropriation" applied to anything but the blues, bluegrass, pottery, etc. (culture) is all bullshit, sorry. Sex belongs to EVERYBODY! If you are saying Heart appropriated lesbian CULTURE, well that is an interesting charge, but I don't see it. Part of lesbian culture has included (since the 70s) radfems. The line "Feminism is the theory, lesbianism is the practice" (credited to Robin Morgan, as I recall) even made it into Alison Bechdel's recent FUN HOME.

And hey, where's YOUR radical resume, BD? Missed it. Another person who just rants in front of the computer? Take it outside.

And to answer your question, I feel the same about Rich, over at Heart's place. What has he actually done?

"This is not a comment about Heart. It's a comment about your logic. Are we saying, then, that anti-racism = having mixed race children? Or just having them when it was illegal? Because this strikes me - either way - as merely a variation on "but my best friend is Black, so I can't be racist!"

Are you serious? How many places have you desegregated? (I asked that, and so far, no takers.) You have lived in all-white areas and have personally been responsible for the first blacks EVER who lived and went to school in those places? Heart took her life in her hands. Are you aware of what she and her children have faced? I will agree that having mixed-raced children is not sufficient to be called anti-racist, but taking them into white enclaves with you and demanding that they be allowed in, IS. Desegregating schools and small towns IS. News Flash: Once upon a time, people would kill you for that, at least when Heart started doing it (and maybe now too). The idea that she actually did this among the fundie wingnuts, kinda blows my mind. It is a lot like Sarah Lucia Hoagland's theories, in that even in a conservative environment, radical things can happen within those contexts.

"Finish the revolution 'we' started?" Seriously, can she hear herself? The world's a far bigger and older place, there."

Yes, we. She meant ALL OF US. I hear her fine, and I'm there. Hope you will join us.

"Transgender," like "gay," is one name for a core identity."

You don't say? Wow, I love being lectured as if I am an idiot. Guess I need to go to college with the rest of you and get the pomo rap together. We didn't have that stuff when I was a kid, but you know what? We had an AWESOME antiwar movement. Since nobody can make a fucking value judgment anymore about good and evil, and prefers dithering over their identity and demanding they be called XYZ (and you can call me a man or a woman, gay or straight, don't give a shit), I believe this endless pomo navel-gazing has supplanted political action, and the result has been DEATH.

Identities are increasingly boring. Like assholes, everyone has one. So? Okay, take your identity, and show up at my rally to end the war. How about you young folks make a deal with me: for every exchange like this, you go out
and attend or organize an anti-war rally, register voters, etc? PLEASE? When I show up, I can be your mommy and you can say, yes mom, we took out the garbage, we fed the cats, we swept the porch, etc. :)

Seriously, I think one impedes the other. Show me I'm wrong.

And now, I end by quoting a white man from Houston, with an old heroin habit and several ex-wives. (Just so you won't accuse me of political correctness or anything. ;P)

I was walkin down the street
In the town where I was born
I was movin to a beat
That I’d never felt before
So I opened up my eyes
And I took a look around
I saw it written cross the sky
The revolution starts now
Yeah, the revolution starts now

The revolution starts now
When you rise above your fear
And tear the walls around you down
The revolution starts here
Where you work and where you play
Where you lay your money down
What you do and what you say
The revolution starts now
Yeah the revolution starts now

Yeah the revolution starts now
In your own backyard
In your own hometown
So what you doin standin around?
Just follow your heart
The revolution starts now

Last night I had a dream
That the world had turned around
And all our hopes had come to be
And the people gathered round
They all brought what they could bring
Nobody went without
And I learned a song to sing
The revolution starts now


(Steve Earle)

27/1/07 05:59  
Blogger Plain(s)feminist said...

OLS -
First, when Toni Morrison did it, she was making an altogether different point. She was looking at how Clinton was a white man who was treated as if he were black in terms of the associations people made to him, the stereotypes, and the kinds of things that people went after him for. When CM did it, it was about her wanting to be included in women of color spaces and her wanting to dictate the conversation on racism AND her wanting to silence women of color who didn't agree with her. Very different.

Second, I agree with Piny that your question in this context about everyone else's activism (did I miss where you laid out your own activist history?) is a red herring. If you seriously care about my work, by all means, send me an email and I will be more than happy to exchange personal histories. But I think what you're really doing here is throwing down a gauntlet because you think no one here has done anything worthwhile. And while I am totally with you on the uselessness of navel-gazing on online trashing, I am also leery of what I think could easily turn into a "that's not enough work; that's the wrong kind of work; that's work for the wrong side" kind of debate. You've just said you're sick of hearing about trans, so now, all the folks who have been working on hate crimes laws to protect trans people are automatically out of the category of working for the cause, as far as you're concerned. And that's just not your call to make.

Yes, I would love to talk about what work we're doing, but I want to do this in a positive environment where we are sharing the difference we're making in the world, not where we're sitting in judgment of each other's work.

Maybe someone will dedicate space to this on their blog...

27/1/07 12:06  
Blogger Plain(s)feminist said...

Oh, and one more thing, OLS. Maybe I missed it, but I didn't see statements in this thread that would lead me to believe that no one was working to end the war, which is what I assume you were referring to. That is your assumption.

(Personally, I've been focusing on Darfur, but that's just me.)

27/1/07 12:10  
Blogger Plain(s)feminist said...

Are you serious? How many places have you desegregated? (I asked that, and so far, no takers.) You have lived in all-white areas and have personally been responsible for the first blacks EVER who lived and went to school in those places? Heart took her life in her hands. Are you aware of what she and her children have faced? I will agree that having mixed-raced children is not sufficient to be called anti-racist, but taking them into white enclaves with you and demanding that they be allowed in, IS. Desegregating schools and small towns IS. News Flash: Once upon a time, people would kill you for that, at least when Heart started doing it (and maybe now too). The idea that she actually did this among the fundie wingnuts, kinda blows my mind. It is a lot like Sarah Lucia Hoagland's theories, in that even in a conservative environment, radical things can happen within those contexts.

My point: knowing this about her makes me think that she must be a very strong and courageous woman, and I don't doubt her commitment to antiracism. Thank you for clarifying your comment about biracial children. But what I witnessed on her blog was racist. And she (like everyone else in the world) needs to take responsibility for it.

OLS, you did not address my comments about what specifically went down on that thread.

27/1/07 12:14  
Blogger little light said...

I am one of the (few? only?) who finds the whole transgender thing a big snooze. Yawn. Okay, it's all been said, let's get back to work now. If people can't get along, go your corners!!!!!! I am SO TIRED OF THIS. Angry Grandma bellow: First one who says TRANS again, gets the switch!

TRANS.

It's nice for you that you find working to make life for me and people like me safe, reasonable, and legal a snooze, OLS. I appreciate that in the grand revolution for human equality, some of us have to be less equal than others and put aside working to make sure our brothers and sisters don't find their rapists and murderers getting off scot-free because we don't count as people, so that we can join your version of the Revolution.

I hadn't gotten the memo, I'm afraid. Give me a moment to catch up. Because when I and two other trans people with me were fighting this war, doing our activism, one of us ended up beaten and sexually molested in a cage, one of us ended up getting threatened with rape by an entire room full of sheriffs, and two of us ended up locked up in cells with a bunch of people of the wrong sex. When I and another trans person were working side by side with everyone else to make our schools safe, to fight racism, and to improve public education, one of us was driven from town on a damned rail and died on the street, because her identity meant a KEEP OUT sign to too many people.
Now, when the rest of the Grand Revolution says this doesn't matter, and we should quit our damn navel-gazing and get back to the stuff that means anything, and *yawn,* what that says to us is that you don't want us in your Revolution.
You say we should just quit whining over our community's 50% sexual assault rate, the fact that many of us can't get jobs, and that our own supposed Sisters In Arms often argue loudly that we shouldn't even be allowed a safe pee in a public place, what you say to us is that we're not human enough to matter for your human equality.

You want us to have your back, to rush to the front lines for cannon fodder, but you won't spare a minute to treat us like people.

Well, you know what? We've been at that front line since the goddamned beginning. We've been bleeding and dying right alongside you, sister, at every turn. And you keep saying, just keep quiet and accept that anything you say is in the way of the Real Grand Cause, because your having a roof over your head, food on the table, and the legal right to travel is a snooze; your being brutalized in jail because you're trans when we're arrested together at a demonstration is a snooze; can't we all just get over it? bo-ored--can't the queers just get in line and do what they're told?

What Revolution was this again? Because I don't remember electing you to run it. Tell me again about my priorities. Tell me again about how simple self-preservation must mean that I've never given anything for global causes you care about. Tell me again about what a big yawn-fest it is to want my life to be meaningful and worthwhile while I'm fighting. Tell me again about how the activists who've fought and died next to me don't matter and how their needs and lives are boring, and can't we just get over it and stop navel gazing?

I guarantee you I'd be stepping in front of a rubber bullet or a real one for you. I guarantee you I'd be fighting for your rights, since I have since the day I was allowed to leave the house as a wet-behind-the-ears kid. And you only make it clear that you're happy to step aside and let the hammer fall on me, and that any attempt to be included as an equal in your Revolution is just self-absorbed whining.

This is not an argument of theory. This is an argument of my blood and bones and those of my loved ones. This is you saying your ideology should matter more to me than my life's breath.

Try again. And bring something bigger than a switch next time; I wear body armor when I hit the street.

27/1/07 12:54  
Blogger little light said...

Also, Fun Home? Bechdel was laying that out as a viewpoint she had when she was immature and just coming out.

Don't you think it's disingenuous to get romantically or sexually involved with other women if you're not attracted to them? How does this not involve co-opting the lives, struggles, desires, and concerns of actual lesbians? How is it fair to those women to "try on" what amounts to their lives like it's a fashion statement?
I'm reminded of a straight girl I know who slums at gay clubs all the time, and finds it glittery and exciting, or good for her sociopolitical cred, but who will never have to deal with the difficulties involved in the lives of the people whose community she's moving in--never have to deal with queer relationships, anti-queer discrimination, family conflicts, anything.

Our lives are not a tourist destination. And I know the connection to trans issues may rise in your mind, here. You know what? "Trying on" sleeping with some women isn't a set of irreversible changes that affect your entire life, all your relationships, your legal status, and every moment of public life you have. I'm leaving out the physical stuff, since a lot of us don't do it, but there's that, too.
Once you're transitioned, every one of those struggles of your community stops being something you can just walk in or out of. I'm just going to pre-emptively say it won't wash as a comparison.

27/1/07 13:40  
Blogger Nanette said...

You're making any number of assumptions, OLS.

Are you well-educated folks enjoying yourselves, with your elitist cracks about those low class riff-raff over at Margins, not knowing who Cybele is?

Me, I haven't a clue who Cybele is, nor half of the other goddesses or whatever mentioned. If I wanted to know, though, of course I could Google - which, actually, I would have made sure to have done before mentioning any of them in as an argument for or against something, by the way.

I am one of the (few? only?) who finds the whole transgender thing a big snooze.

I don't, I'm afraid. I rarely to never find active discrimination and hate, especially from those who should be purported allies, to be a 'snooze'. I am not trans, nor am I especially familiar with "trans issues" - hate speech (which rarely travels alone, usually always has hate action along with it, even if not perpetrated by the same people), dehumanization, dismissal or refusal of identity or individuality, to the point of not directly engaging someone, and so on? That I'm very familiar with. And no, working against that sort of thing does not make me sleepy... you snooze, you lose and all that. Sometimes your life.

Are you serious? How many places have you desegregated? (I asked that, and so far, no takers.)

I'll take it! I've desegregated schools, classrooms, office spaces, blogs, chatrooms, stores, airplanes and more simply by walking through the (real or virtual) doors. I'm sure little light and other people of color on here can say the same. Should it need to be said, which it really didn't, but I have this habit of pointing out the obvious.

You have lived in all-white areas and have personally been responsible for the first blacks EVER who lived and went to school in those places?

Um, yes.

I will agree that having mixed-raced children is not sufficient to be called anti-racist, but taking them into white enclaves with you and demanding that they be allowed in, IS. Desegregating schools and small towns IS.

Not necessarily. Mind you, I'm not impugning Heart's motives, or making judgments about her life or anything... for one thing, I've only caught snippets here and there of her story, so mostly what I've gathered so far is that she was a fundie, and has been married to 3 Black men, one or all of whom were abusive. I know this (or think I know) because whenever she mentions her marriages, she mentions that they were to abusive Black men. Or maybe just one abusive Black man, and the Black men weren't. I'm really not sure.

I know she has a number of bi-racial children who she loves very much, and I hope they and she are doing well with that and continue to do so.

None of the facts of this are necessarily anti-racist though, and it's probably due to my being a Black woman of a cynical age, and possibly not knowing the full story, that my reaction to all that is more of a "hmmm", than a "what a great and brave person!".

Seriously, I think one impedes the other. Show me I'm wrong.

Seriously, most people really can walk and chew gum at the same time. I'm sure there is more to you than this what you are showing now, but when I read your words what comes through for me is "comfortable, entitled, unthreatened in daily life for just existing and, of course, forests and trees".

For some people, whose very existence is objected to, simply living long enough to greet the next dawn is activism.

27/1/07 13:52  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Piny: You don't get it, do you? Read the Charlie Rose post, then ask what we've done. Living as a transperson requires someone to fight for the rights of the oppressed, because we have to continually demand that policies change simply in order to obtain and keep jobs, homes, medical treatment, safety. I got my workplace to formulate a policy around transition in the workplace. Why? I was the first one. And, hello, people who have to constantly regroup around all of those things don't exactly need to be told what their priorities should be. What have you done, troll? Hit the snooze button?

Sounds like you are talking about a movement. According to Nexyjo's post, in the thread in question, there IS no transgender movement. She wrote:

there is no “transgender movement”. transgender people are people who make individual choices about they they can live in a world controlled by the patriarchy. there’s no “movement”. only desperate individuals.

Do you agree with her or not?

If this is true, being trans is a chosen identity no different than any other (punk rocker, preppie, metrosexual, whatever) under commodity capitalism, what we used to call a "personal solution". If she is incorrect, and there IS a movement (and I believe there is), take responsibility and act like it, and learn to exercise criticism/self-criticism as other movements have. This means you should not simply dismiss anyone as a troll who disagrees with your take on gender. I am a lifelong feminist and activist. If you can't deal with me, what are you going to do with real live Republicans? I went to the wall for a transperson's job just last year. (I only say this in answer to your question about "what have you done?") Would you like a list of everything I have done since 1968?

I know you will argue about this, but the fact is: We would not even be having this conversation if not for women like me and Heart, making the world safe(r) for little girls to have minds, lives, jobs, credit and relationships of our own choosing.

And speaking of privilege, aren't you a man? You have chosen to join the class of the privileged, so you probably shouldn't preach to me about that. You now belong to that class, by your own choice. I will not bow to you--I do not bow to any man's authority, ordering me to get lost and trashing my character. NO MAN, no matter how or when he became one.

As Amy said in her post over at Heart's board:

The worst thing that is EVER said by any trans activist about any trans-related anything is that it “doesn’t represent” the trans movement as a whole.
Well, pardon my accent, but FUCK THAT. Just about my entire blog is about dissecting the words and actions of feminists, and women who call themselves feminists, and people who think they ARE feminists, and what they say and do that isn’t in line with the amazing body of work that is feminism. That hardly means I think they should be lined up and shot, but it does mean that I am going to call out shit within my own movement, and when trans advocates do that–and when they start to articulate transgender theory in a way that doesn’t lump “the rest of us” into the “cisgender” and therefore-not-oppressed pigpile–maybe I will start to take them seriously.


I wouldn't get that exercised about it, but I generally agree. And I will modify that: not MAYBE, I promise I will take the movement seriously.

As it is, many of you are in ideological lockstep, and no one is allowed to question anything about the trans MOVEMENT and accompanying gender theory, without being accused of hurting transpeople as individuals. Conversely, when we question the decision of an individual to transition, you revert to talking about the movement as a whole (which may or may not exist). Consequently, having any kind of discussion about this is like trying to nail jello to the floor. You attempt to silence all criticism, call people troll, etc. Okay, but as I said, what are you going to do with real Republicans?

What I find snooze-worthy is all this hairsplitting over who is a woman, who isn't, who is a man, who isn't, who do we let into Michfest (FTR, I don't go to Michfest), who is essentialist, who isn't, Mary Daly, Anne Lawrence, Janice Raymond, the usual cast of characters, blah blah blah. Apparently, you all want to hash this out ad infinitum, but I don't. I am satisfied to simply take people at their word for what gender they currently believe they are, and move on. I don't see why we can't do that, and discuss things as they arise, and WITHOUT RANCOR. (Note: I didn't see any rancor from Heart.)

However, I am not settling for cheap grace. I am not going to simply nod and say yes yes yes, your concepts of gender are correct on all counts, right on, and put aside my feminist concerns (and my life's work), scared that I'll get trashed as unhip, backward, hopelessly old and 70s by the likes of piny. I don't suck up, and I don't consider that respect anyway. A thoroughgoing dialogue is. And I have never sucked up to Heart, et. al. either.

Let me clarify: reading the same sentences over and over, that say the same things, with people talking past each other, again and again, day in day out, garbage in garbage out, is a BORE. SNOOZE. YAWN. That is what I meant. (I think you all know perfectly well that is what I meant, but you are choosing the most uncharitable reading.)

LL: Don't you think it's disingenuous to get romantically or sexually involved with other women if you're not attracted to them?

Do you think anyone really did/does that? I certainly didn't. Maybe I just find many types of people attractive. :)

LL: How does this not involve co-opting the lives, struggles, desires, and concerns of actual lesbians?

What is an "actual lesbian"? You are saying a political lesbian who has been in a relationship with another woman for 30 years isn't as "actual" as some teenager who came out last weekend but has no political idea about lesbianism? Huh?

I don't believe in "actual lesbians", nor actual men, actual women, actual races, none of that. I am not an essentialist. I deal with these terms politically only, because our common language is limited, and in this world, I must communicate in some way. But I do not believe in these arbitrary categories of human beings, used to oppress people; I want to get rid of them. These false categories are the problem, not the solution.

LL: How is it fair to those women to "try on" what amounts to their lives like it's a fashion statement?

Nobody ever objected, in my experience. We were all big girls. Most of us were trying it with each other. What's wrong with that? God, you sound like the religious right. I am an old woman, and I had a sexually repressed upbringing. These ideas were very liberating to me, and all of us. They were wonderful! I don't apologize for or regret anything, and I never hurt other women. (I DID hurt men, and too fucking bad, they got plenty out of me.) We did not regard this as a "fashion statement" but as throwing off repressive shackles. If you have always been free to have extramarital sex or queer sex, without worrying that you will burn forever in hell, perhaps you can't understand that.

LL: I'm reminded of a straight girl I know who slums at gay clubs all the time, and finds it glittery and exciting, or good for her sociopolitical cred, but who will never have to deal with the difficulties involved in the lives of the people whose community she's moving in--never have to deal with queer relationships, anti-queer discrimination, family conflicts, anything.

That reminds me, I also kept a gay club from closing two years ago, and got their license extended. (Another reply to piny's "what have you done?")

plain(s)feminist: And while I am totally with you on the uselessness of navel-gazing on online trashing, I am also leery of what I think could easily turn into a "that's not enough work; that's the wrong kind of work; that's work for the wrong side" kind of debate.

I hear you. It often does, doesn't it. Some good moderation or a statement from the outset might be good.

OLS, you did not address my comments about what specifically went down on that thread.

If you mean all of the Morgan thread, and CM's long posts, I didn't read them all, because I found the self-centeredness annoying. (Forcing me to admit that, huh? :P ) If you mean (?) the legendary thread at Twisty's, I stopped reading after I saw the name "Mar Iguana"--who was banned from the Ms. boards for declaring that "jewboys" defeated the ERA. And I read that myself, so I don't want to hear that it's not true or that her words were somehow twisted. Not twisted, and she kept right on defending them. So, no thank you. I need no other information from this person, and I don't read anything she says.

Nanette: None of the facts of this are necessarily anti-racist though, and it's probably due to my being a Black woman of a cynical age, and possibly not knowing the full story, that my reaction to all that is more of a "hmmm", than a "what a great and brave person!

Can I ask where you are from? I am from the deep south, and in saying that, probably just gave my identity away, to Heart anyway. I am attempting anonymity, primarily because I want to be fair (is it working?) and there is a great deal at stake in my professional life in my having this conversation, particularly the previous paragraph about lesbianism. In any event, there is a lot I just can't say about Heart's life, because it is not my place to do so.

And from the deep south, of a certain age, I confess to feelings of abject terror concerning desegregation, anti-klan activity, etc. Few political acts scare me as much. In fact, none do. I once skipped out of an anti-klan rally (the klan physically present) because I could not stop throwing up due to fear. I was so embarrassed, but I was literally too scared to keep even water down. (I later joked that "they made me too sick"--but the fact was, I was just really terrified.) I later learned to face down these fears, but I always threw up before rallies against the klan, nazis (in Chicago), National Assn for Neighborhood schools, and so on.

You AND Heart, are far braver than me.

27/1/07 17:11  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Piny on genocide: It's not not a trans/queer issue. It's just not the only issue that affects our lives. You have the luxury of ignoring this whole trans thing. We don't.

And neither do the Iraqis have the luxury of ignoring our (you are included in OUR) illegal and immoral occupation of their country, as they struggle to feed their people and offer some semblance of medical care on two measly hours of electricity a day.

I will admit: I consider the wholesale slaughter of human beings in my name to be the most pressing and immediate political issue right now. Nothing else comes remotely close.

Bias, out front. Guilty as charged.

27/1/07 17:35  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

OLS:

Identities are increasingly boring. Like assholes, everyone has one. So? Okay, take your identity, and show up at my rally to end the war.

How the hell do you know we don't do just that?

How the hell do you have the right to lecture us about issues that you couldn't possibly know our take on?

If this is true, being trans is a chosen identity no different than any other (punk rocker, preppie, metrosexual, whatever) under commodity capitalism, what we used to call a "personal solution".

Just because there is no "movement" -- no large group of centrally organized, politically active people -- as of yet, does not make being trans a chosen identity. For the record, I am not trans; however, having nursed my best friend through the process of transitioning (female to male, and call him a gender traitor if you will) I can tell you that that was not his choice. He could have "chosen" to pretend to be a woman forever -- but that would be submission to the prejudices of the world, just like it is submission to the prejudices of the world for a woman to let the patriarchy tell her what to wear, how to act, and so on.

I'm not going to take you on in any other respect -- I don't feel like I have a good enough grasp on the history of feminism, for one thing, to properly discuss feminism with you, to successfully back up and argue the positions that I believe to be true. (Yes, I am a college student, and maybe that makes me "academented" -- I don't know. But my point is, I haven't been around for all the work that was done prior to this time. And I respect that: I respect the fact that you, and Heart, and other women like you have done that work. I'm grateful that I got to grow up without such a heavy weight of sexism as you had to deal with. I thank my mother, who WAS part of that work in a very real way, and I thank you. That doesn't mean that I have to agree with your attitudes and views wholesale.)

27/1/07 18:44  
Blogger Plain(s)feminist said...

OLS - I'm talking about the Morgan thread.

27/1/07 18:52  
Blogger little light said...

OLS, you're not engaging me, not on the substantive stuff. Is there a reason for that?

I'm increasingly troubled by your strategy here. It's one I've seen before. You came in here to restart an argument that was going cold, an argument that was started by Heart about a post that had nothing to do with her and everything to do with me getting up and doing that work to survive and finding the strength to improve other people's lives besides.

And then, when I have the temerity to defend myself, or other people come in to defend me, then suddenly the accusation is that this argument is all we ever do, and oh God can't we think of the children? Why aren't we talking about the dying Iraqis?

You don't seem to pay attention to anything we do outside these arguments. You don't seem interested in all the work we do for other causes. But when one of your own comes after me and I dare to have a conversation about it, that's the part you see--and then you seem to assume, therefore, that that's all that I or anyone else here ever does.

You want to claim none of us does anything political or has given anything for any cause other than academic hairsplitting over gendered semantics. When some of us take the bait and step forward and tell you what we do indeed do, you just pass by it and say, 'Well? Anyone else? I guess nobody here is really an activist.' You invite me to join "your" rally like you own the antiwar movement. And when the argument gets a little uncomfortable--when we're chewing away talking about stuff you just brought up--then your response is 'why are you talking about this, when you could be talking about something completely different?'

Why is it that when, say, Heart takes time off from her political activism to pursue me, that doesn't earn criticism from you as a distraction from saving dying Iraqi babies, but when I stand up for myself, suddenly we have no time and it's a block to the Real Issues?

It's like kicking sand in someone's face, and then shushing them and saying, "Look, let's be reasonable. Why do you do nothing but argue with me over who did what when? There's more important stuff to worry about. Won't you think of the children?"

27/1/07 19:39  
Blogger Allie said...

I have to say, if trans (oops, said it) rights, queer rights, and all that are so nonessential to the ideas of equality that I (a very societally privileged, lucky-enough-to-be-born-cisgendered white college student) were the point of the feminist movement -- am I wrong here? Am I supposed to be caring about something else, like female dominance? -- then something is wrong. It is not possible to throw aside these things to reach some other goal, because when we get there, we;ll still have that problem, and we'll be that much more like whatever opressors we may have defeated.

I realise that was convoluted. Simpler: if I as someone who can exercise privilege and fit into current societal norms try to fight to overcome something, be it sexism or the overseas war, without respecting and allying myself with people more discriminated against than myself, then I am failing at my ultimate aim of making the world a better and less hierarchically defined place.

And really, is yelling at each other really losing that much time from yelling at Bush? Everybody knows that blogging expands to fill the time available ;)

27/1/07 19:59  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Piny: I'm sick of this, I gotta say. You're no better than the MRA trolls who show up on feminist blogs and try to tell feminists that sexism doesn't exist and what about Tawana Bradley? If you're arguing in good faith, you're not very good at arguing.

Tawana Brawley, you mean?

And since you seem to argue entirely about what I SHOULD KNOW (read: stupid bitch that I am) and engage in still more name- calling, insulting and gatekeeping, I'm exiting this blog, per your orders, Mistah Boss Man.

And I don't appreciate you belittling my intelligence. Is that really necessary?

MRA? Minimum Retirement Age? (?) Do not know who/what you refer to.

Piny: Then stop repeating the non-arguments we've seen approximately eight gazillion times before.

I did not have access to a computer for a long while, and I only recently started following these threads. After the Michfest boards closed, I avoided all trans arguments for a long time, but now it is everywhere. So I figured it was time to deal and I plowed through some of the more recent threads. More or less.

If you can't deal with someone who has fought in important political struggles (several influencing you and your life) for almost four decades, you gonna have major trouble with the Bill O'Reillys of the world.

Have fun patting each other on the back for being the cool kids in the clubhouse. I'm probably too old for this shit anyway. But I'm curious: If I hadn't given myself away as second wave, would you like me better? Never mind, I think I already know the answer to that one.

PS: Hi Heart, it's Uhura, if you haven't already guessed.

27/1/07 20:00  
Blogger little light said...

Piny doesn't run the show here, Uhura.
I do. It's my house. You decided to drop by. Are you going to engage with me? Are we having a conversation here? Or are you just coming in to provoke, pick apart the bits of people's comments you can find typos in, and then leave in a public huff so you can tell everyone how unreasonable it is in here?

I want to give you the benefit of the doubt. I have attempted to do so, in the hopes that maybe you were concerned with actually coming to some kind of understanding, barring common ground or agreement.
Please, feel free to disabuse me of my increasing doubts on those matters. Give me some evidence that you're actually listening, here.

What you're basically saying, as I understand it, is that you've been apart from the context of this dispute; haven't tracked the history of it; form a cursory examination, find that the fact that anyone is talking about it tiresome; came in on one side to defend Heart, who--do you approve of this, since you're asking whether or not I stand with the statements of every trans person on the internet ever--argues that calling people like me "it" and using abusive slurs is acceptable discourse and "language of resistance" and began a dispute with me while continuing to refuse to actually engage with me; and then have spent all your time telling anyone who disagrees with you that they either don't have the cred to talk to you, are talking academicspeak they're not, and so on--and now you're leaving, huh?

What were you looking to accomplish? Is there a way I can help you accomplish it? Or was the idea just to shake a finger at people and continue the grand tradition of telling me to shut up and get in line with your ideas about how things should run?

27/1/07 20:15  
Blogger Plain(s)feminist said...

After the Michfest boards closed, I avoided all trans arguments for a long time, but now it is everywhere. So I figured it was time to deal and I plowed through some of the more recent threads.

...and for you it is something to *deal* with, an annoyance, a trivial matter that clouds the real issues. To trans people, it is an issue of life and death. And if you don't understand why that is, then you have the responsibility to educate yourself about this rather than acting as though you are being oppressed by elitists whenever this is suggested. You might start by reading Leslie Feinberg's piece about how she almost died of an easily treatable infection because of the discrimination she faced by the hospital staff. Or maybe I could tell you about my friend, who was subjected to a horrible, hack job of a genital surgery without anesthesia, and when she made it to the hospital, bleeding and infected, the doctor on call refused to treat her because he didn't approve of her lifestyle.

If you can't deal with someone who has fought in important political struggles (several influencing you and your life) for almost four decades, you gonna have major trouble with the Bill O'Reillys of the world.

Read this over again. Is this seriously how you want to present yourself? You're the only one here who has participated in important political struggles that have influenced us and our lives? You're the only one here who's pushing 40 (or 50? or 60? or whatever?)? You're the only second waver? Come ON. You have made this whole issue about YOU. It's not about the war, it's not about activism - at least, it wasn't when you wrote that paragraph. It was about you feeling like you weren't getting the respect you deserved from younger feminists (who, presumably, aren't pulling their weight on the battle lines).

And that's a great topic to write about on your own blog, but it's pretty shitty to do it on someone else's, especially when you have so little understanding of the issues LL and others are addressing here, and especially when you see their entire lives as nothing more than an affront to your "real" work.

Dammit. You want respect? Show a little to other people.

27/1/07 20:23  
Blogger J. Goff said...

MRA? Minimum Retirement Age? (?) Do not know who/what you refer to.

Male Right's Activists. A bunch of stains. They make arguments hardly distinguishable from yours and Heart's and Pony's and lucknkl's and any number of disgusting bigots who think they own the world because they hold the privilege they need in the palm of their hands.

But yeah, keep telling other people that bigotry against them is imagined. Rush Limbaugh makes a living off of it. I'm sure you could probably go on any number of conservative talk shows and make your points re transgender people known. They'd love to have you.

It, again, all comes down to this:

OMS/Heart/Whomever says that, because they've done such-and-such, whatever they say cannot be bigotry. EVER.

"IT ISN'T BIGOTRY IF I SAY SO, SO NEENER, NEENER!"

You make me ill, you disgusting jer.

27/1/07 20:32  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Okay, LL, in fairness. It's your blog.

Piny doesn't run the show here, Uhura.
I do. It's my house.


Coulda fooled me. He's just a bully, then? Can't tell him and Lucky apart without a scorecard. (He's doing great at manhood so far, he's obviously got the intimidation part down pat.)

You decided to drop by. Are you going to engage with me? Are we having a conversation here? Or are you just coming in to provoke, pick apart the bits of people's comments you can find typos in,

HELLO??? Typos? Tawana Brawley deserves the respect of spelling her name right, even if Piny was just using her as window dressing. If you can get Nicole Brown Simpson's name right, you can get Tawana Brawley's right. Especially if Piny is dissing my intelligence in the same fucking paragraph--why can't TWO people play that game?

and then leave in a public huff so you can tell everyone how unreasonable it is in here?

I didn't tell anyone any such thing.

I want to give you the benefit of the doubt. I have attempted to do so, in the hopes that maybe you were concerned with actually coming to some kind of understanding, barring common ground or agreement.
Please, feel free to disabuse me of my increasing doubts on those matters. Give me some evidence that you're actually listening, here.


I would very much like a dialogue, but I've just been told not to say the same things you've all heard "a gazillion times". Since I don't know all gazillion arguments, I am certain to repeat a few. Also, I can argue with one person, but I can't deal with a gangpile.

What you're basically saying, as I understand it, is that you've been apart from the context of this dispute; haven't tracked the history of it;

I thought I said I just did that? Is my writing that bad? Am I speaking Sanskrit?

form a cursory examination, find that the fact that anyone is talking about it tiresome; came in on one side to defend Heart, who--do you approve of this, since you're asking whether or not I stand with the statements of every trans person on the internet ever--argues that calling people like me "it" and using abusive slurs is acceptable discourse and "language of resistance"

I think that's a misquote. Could you provide the whole paragraph, in context? No, I don't approve of calling people "it" or "trolls" either, but it appears at least one of those is okay with you.

To get serious about this, if you are sincere:

I think it is important to ask, what do we do if we disapprove of people's decisions about their lives, that we believe are political? How can we register disagreement, when, say, my sister wants bypass surgery, or my other sister wants a boob job? Or my gay brother wants to be a priest? Is there a way we can say "This is fucked up" without offending them? I think not. What to do, then? What "language of resistance" can people offer in a constructive way? IS there any constructive way to say "Don't do that"? If someone gets married, and you object (do you? What are people's politics here, regarding compulsory heterosexuality?), can you still discuss the compulsory nature of heterosexuality without everyone starting to hyperventilate? What if someone wants to be a Mormon? Have babies or not have them, as the case may be? Vegetarians are invited to participate here, since many deal with this dilemma every day. How to object? CAN we object? How to say: "Do not change your sexual identification. Do not eat meat. Do not have more babies with that awful man. Do not become a priest"? I have been on the receiving end many times, as well. It isn't all one way.

I say we can registered our objections in a principled way, but I often flinch at the prospect of actually doing it. When I do, I try to make it clear it is not an objection to the human being doing this, but I object to their choice.

My opinion about "transitioning" (a word I am not sure I understand, since it is used in so many different ways) is: I believe transitioning is a choice to identify as one gender or another, and consciously become more like the chosen gender role, in terms of dress, voice, presentation. In doing this (the transitioning), the person is adhering to gender categories that I think are detrimental to humanity. FTR, as feminist, I make this criticism of everyone, trans or not. I admit I have been fairly harsh, too, especially with my own daughter. But at least she isn't a fembot (but it was close there for awhile!).

When a transperson says they simply ARE a man/woman, I need to know exactly what that means, since I don't believe these categories are genuine, and I intend to destroy the categories. (In the first place, I need to know if that is even possible, which I've had doubts about lately.) So far, it seems most radicals agree, on the face of it, that "man" and "woman" are about behavior, or emotional/psych profiles. If that's what woman/man is, there is no reason to change one's gender identification, unless you believe certain feelings, activities etc are "wrong" for your gender. (NOTE: A major source of confusion I have is over the words male/female vs. man/woman, which I have always used interchangably. Apparently, transpeople make some distinctions here, that I'm not following too well.)

When I hear folks say they feel they are in the "wrong body"--I have to ask what that means. Are old people in the "wrong body"? (I feel a distinct disconnect when I see myself in the mirror now, Big Bad Mama Uhura is long gone, and umm, Grandma Uhura, not nearly as cool, seems to have taken her place.) From a coffee mug: "Inside every old person is a young person wondering what the hell happened." :) Fat and disabled people, as well as anorexics, often describe that, too. This is not unique to transpeople. What do transpeople think of that, and why is their body disconnect supposedly different than these others?

[Heart]began a dispute with me while continuing to refuse to actually engage with me;

Why can't you engage with her? Are you banned over there? If so, I was not aware of that.

and then have spent all your time telling anyone who disagrees with you that they either don't have the cred to talk to you, are talking academicspeak they're not, and so on--and now you're leaving, huh?

I didn't once use the term "academicspeak" or "cred"; you did. Please stop putting words in my mouth.

What were you looking to accomplish?

I was defending Heart. Also, you all sounded pretty smug and arrogant in your trashing of her, and I got pissed off. If I'd known the thread was "winding down" I probably wouldn't have bothered, but I wasn't thinking clearly since I got mad. I have a lot of respect for Heart and the work she has done, and I felt you were all being disrespectful. Heart is correct in that disrespecting feminist foremothers is happening a lot these days, and the whole thing makes me furious. (Projection!) That is another reason I responded. I was also startled you didn't mention Morgan, but I don't think that's some appropriation blah blah blah on your part. What I think is that our feminist foremothers are being erased by the culture at large, as much leftist history/herstory has also.

Is there a way I can help you accomplish it? Or was the idea just to shake a finger at people and continue the grand tradition of telling me to shut up and get in line with your ideas about how things should run?

If you want to talk about the ideas I have laid out above, and why they are fucked, go for it. But if you are going to tell me that I am fucked, not just my ideas, I am not interested in being insulted. As you would not be. Other things I don't want to hear: that you've heard that a gazillion times and you therefore don't have to engage the argument; if I do not agree with you, I am a troll; if I care about Heart, I am a troll; that's all been dealt with by some movement heavy, and it's old hat, now fuck off; etc. In short, I won't be insulted. I do not insult you.

OTOH, if you are up for this, it might be very fruitful and interesting. We'd have to keep on top of it, though, so that it doesn't go off into Twisty-territory. And I don't want to be beat up on either.

~~

However, my most important question: Is "Little Light" from the hymn? I grew up with it. :)

27/1/07 21:41  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Jack Off: I'm sure you could probably go on any number of conservative talk shows and make your points re transgender people known. They'd love to have you.

I've actually been on the radio defending trans rights. It was rough, since I hardly knew what I was talking about (call-in show, didn't know what they would ask), but I stuck to it! :P I did pretty good, if I do say so myself. I am rarely at a loss for words!

This is the kind of thing I mean, LL. I don't need to be called jerk, etc if we are going to dialogue further. If you would rather not dialogue, I can understand that, since you will probably take some hits from people here, who will strongly object to your talking to me. But thank you for asking.

27/1/07 21:49  
Blogger J. Goff said...

I've actually been on the radio defending trans rights. It was rough, since I hardly knew what I was talking about (call-in show, didn't know what they would ask), but I stuck to it! :P I did pretty good, if I do say so myself. I am rarely at a loss for words!

So, why are you here, making points against transgender people's rights? Is it because here you can have a face that more adequately represents your true beliefs? I could understand that, if you were more honest. And if you actually read the entirety of what's gone on. I shouldn't have called you a jerk, but, in all seriousness, your argumentation, your points, and your language make me sick to my stomach. I've read the things you've said before, and they didn't come from liberal-minded, well-intentioned people. Bigotry isn't something you can opt out of because you've been on the receiving end of a type of oppression.

You aren't fighting the good fight here. You are furthering an argument made by MUCH MUCH MUCH lesser people. Like, people on the level of troglodytes and evil assholes such as Rushbo. That's something I hope you gain from this. Somehow, I'm seriously doubting that that will happen.

By the way, my name is John Goff. I blog as JackGoff to preempt stains from stupidity and from the phrase "jackoff". Take that as you will. I'm used to it, as I have told many people.

27/1/07 22:31  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Jacking Off: So, why are you here, making points against transgender people's rights?

When have I ever denied a person's RIGHTS or proposed such a thing???? Quotes please? I have never ever believed such a thing. WHAT are you talking about? I am talking about approving individual choices within radical communities. Isn't that what this is?

Is it because here you can have a face that more adequately represents your true beliefs?

Which are what, exactly? Since you know me so well, and all?

I could understand that, if you were more honest. And if you actually read the entirety of what's gone on. I shouldn't have called you a jerk, but, in all seriousness, your argumentation, your points, and your language make me sick to my stomach.

And I don't suppose you can address the actual substance of my remarks or deconstruct them? Better to have an emotional, melodramatic, PC response that everyone will approve. Don't wanna get dirty by arguing with the dissenters! Richard Nixon said arguing with dissidents just gives them credibility, and I know you don't want to do that!

I've read the things you've said before, and they didn't come from liberal-minded, well-intentioned people.

What did you think of Belledame's post about "choices"? I could say the same about that. Sounds libertarian, but I do understand her point. In fact, that is exactly what I am talking about.
Belledame wrote: and once again: notice the rage at the people who claim that "choice" is possible; because anyone claiming any sort of agency, ability to -make- a choice--and Heart makes no distinction between a particular woman who says, very specifically, "This is my choice" and anyone saying (this would be more understandable for her to object to) "Everything that ever happens to a woman happens because she chose it."

Interestingly, I have the same opinion, when I am told transpeople have "no choice" but to transition. Notice the rage at me for claiming that "choice" is possible because anyone claiming any sort of agency, ability to -make- a choice...etc. (fill in the rest of the post appropriately).

Why is it permissible to for Belledame to say women make choices under patriarchy, but I can't say that transpeople make a choice to transition, under patriarchy? Honestly, I really don't get the double standard here.

Jack Off: Bigotry isn't something you can opt out of because you've been on the receiving end of a type of oppression.

Preach it, preach it. You obviously know far more about this than I do.

You aren't fighting the good fight here.

Who said I was? You are quoting the Bible to me, now?

You are furthering an argument made by MUCH MUCH MUCH lesser people. Like, people on the level of troglodytes and evil assholes such as Rushbo.

When has Rush had in-depth discussions about feminist theory and gender roles? Must have missed those.

That's something I hope you gain from this. Somehow, I'm seriously doubting that that will happen.

Well, as I said, you obviously know far more about this than I do.

By the way, my name is John Goff. I blog as JackGoff to preempt stains from stupidity and from the phrase "jackoff". Take that as you will. I'm used to it, as I have told many people.here.

Ay yo trip, guess I got confused, since your posts are so preachy (with Bible-quoting even!), haughty, superior--and above all, masculine and authoritative. In short, a jackoff. A sticky MESS, that can knock you up besides. Yeeeuch.

No need to explain anything. Your name suits you very well.

27/1/07 23:18  
Blogger J. Goff said...

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27/1/07 23:27  
Blogger J. Goff said...

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27/1/07 23:34  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

plain(s)feminist quotes me here:

After the Michfest boards closed, I avoided all trans arguments for a long time, but now it is everywhere. So I figured it was time to deal and I plowed through some of the more recent threads.

and replies:

...and for you it is something to *deal* with, an annoyance, a trivial matter that clouds the real issues. To trans people, it is an issue of life and death.

Why is attending the Michigan Womyn's Music Festival a matter of life and death? Oh come on, I hardly think so.

Are you saying both FTMs and MTFs should be allowed into festival? I would personally prefer MTFs over FTMs, who I gather are there already? See, I object to FTMs in attendance, but I usually get shouted down.

And if you don't understand why that is, then you have the responsibility to educate yourself about this rather than acting as though you are being oppressed by elitists whenever this is suggested.

I have never said I was oppressed by elitists or transpeople. What are you talking about? Here we go again.

You are mixing me up with someone else.

Piny wrote: "Wow, really? You mean, that since some other transperson said something that sounds different, I must not have it right? There is no trans unanimity on what our goals must be, or what the world must look like."

How about you cut me the same break, and stop assuming I must have the exact same opinions as every other radical feminist you dislike?

27/1/07 23:34  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Jack: Bible quoting? "Fighting the good fight?" Well, I guess if you think you are, rock on into the night.

Fight the good fight of faith, lay hold on eternal life, whereunto thou art also called, and hast professed a good profession before many witnesses.--1st Timothy 6:12

I have fought a good fight, I have finished [my] course, I have kept the faith. --2nd Timothy 4:17

Jack: By the way, being a feminist activist, doing all those wonderful amazing things that make you so much better than the rest of us? Yeah, they don't give you a right to crap on little light and piny and others. Hope that helps.

Asskissing is always cute, coming from men. Much more convincing than pretending you weren't shoving the Apostle Paul in my face, when you certainly were.

Hope that helps.

27/1/07 23:46  
Blogger J. Goff said...

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27/1/07 23:49  
Blogger J. Goff said...

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27/1/07 23:55  
Blogger little light said...

JackGoff, I want you to step out and take a breath. I appreciate that you're trying to be an ally here, but I don't think this way of going about it is helpful to the discussion right now.

Everyone, for the record: having caught up some with this thread, and with some more catching up to do, I think it's time to have some more grace, and focus more on what we're protecting and building, not what we're against.
I appreciate the support and the backup from the bottom of my heart, but we can do better. I love how fervently ready people are to fight against wrongdoing or--this may be conceit--to protect me, and I know there are a lot of old wounds involved, my own included, but we have to pull up sometime.
While I recognize that fighting back against longstanding hostility and arguing with people who use nasty, dehumanizing language and behavior sometimes requires forceful resistance, I don't think it's helpful to sink to their level. I appreciate the vehemence and passion, but there's no sense crossing the line into outright abuse.

"Civility" is arguable, but I would rather have a discussion before people just get torn apart.


OLS, I'll get to talking with you when I've heard a breath and done the dishes. Please keep in mind that this admonishment applies to you, too, in my house.
I don't intend to lump you in with some of the folk you're defending until I have sure reason to do so, but you need to understand there's a lot of very ugly context here, and a lot of the people here have come off of some extremely frustrating and upsetting interactions, and are primed to expect hostility from your quarter. I want to have a conversation, here, and while at the moment I have a lot of very, very strong disagreements with you, I apologize for the explosions that may come with.

You have a lot of history you're bringing into this. So do we--so do I. It would do everyone well to keep this in mind.

Take a breath and think of your loved ones before you post.

28/1/07 00:19  
Blogger J. Goff said...

JackGoff, I want you to step out and take a breath

I'm sorry, LL. I won't post here again.

28/1/07 00:25  
Blogger little light said...

...and that's why I tried to calm things down.

Listen, people, this conversation wasn't going well, just now, and I know there's a lot of hurt going into this, but at least OLS was here, and indicating the possibility that there could be some kind of mutual understanding, on at least some issues. She was certainly readier to talk about these things than the people she came here to defend, and despite the condescension and the red herrings, I'll take what chances I can get.

Maybe she wasn't actually open to listening; I can't say one way or another. But now we do know for sure: she won't be for a while. And that doesn't help any of us.

Fighting back is necessary, but so is precision and discretion. Half an ally is better than a whole enemy. Let's not be what we're accused of being. We can do better.

28/1/07 00:40  
Blogger J. Goff said...

And one more thing: I'm sorry OLS. Very sorry for my bullshit. As I said. I will will shut up from here on out. I was out of line. Please don't stop commenting here on my account.

28/1/07 00:42  
Blogger little light said...

I'm not saying you're wrong, Piny. I don't think it was a fair approach to any of this, either, and I think a lot of our buttons got pushed. I was one of the first to lose my temper, and I was gritting my teeth at the notion of running down Trans 101 for yet another person who might just, after I put a lot of work into it, not listen to a thing I write.

I just believe in charitable interpretations whenever possible. No, this wasn't going well, and lot of it was her approach, but I thought I saw a glimmer of an opening, and I at least saw someone willing to treat me as a human being, even if she was also willing to defend people who wouldn't.
I'd rather assume the best and be proven wrong, honestly. It may be unwise, and it may be foolish to take people at face value that way, but I feel better about my own moral life when it all adds up.

28/1/07 00:53  
Blogger little light said...

What is a diplomatic way of turning aside the "...And I've always wondered something--why is it that you have to transition anyway? Isn't it really about [misconception]?" It happens over and over again, on the Alas threads especially.

I've been trying and trying to figure that one out, lately. I was kind of hoping you had an answer. It seems like the very first and most lasting derail in every one of these discussions.

28/1/07 00:55  
Blogger little light said...

JackGoff, I want to clarify:
Yes, I feel you got out of line, and I asked you to take a little time out of this thread to catch your breath. That doesn't mean you're not still welcome here, nor that I don't appreciate your past contributions.

Mistakes get made, especially when we're heated and justifiably upset. I wouldn't have addressed you directly if I didn't think you'd have the respect to understand what I was asking, and I think--whether or not it fell on deaf ears in the end--your apology was a step in the right direction.
I don't know if there will be an apology to match it, regarding the insults thrown at you, but...well. This is one of those places where it may behoove us to live without the reciprocity.

I hope you stick around.

28/1/07 01:21  
Blogger Drakyn said...

Uhura, you aren't really defining things the way many transpeople, myself included, do.
Gender/sex roles are what society says a person should be like, ie: boys like blue, girls play with dolls, men are aggressive, women are nurturing, etc.
Gender expression is how a person actually acts.
And gender identity is how a person identifies. Not too long ago, the question, "What do we mean when we say we 'feel like N gender'?" was asked on a trans-forum. Most people who responded couldn't really explain it. Only that they felt deep inside, ever since they were young, that they are N gender.
For me, knowing I am a man is like knowing I am in love. I can't fully explain it and my experience is going to be very different than anyone else's experience, but I can't help but know.

And when it comes to transpeople/transition/etc. supporting gender roles/patriarchy/etc, well, I think it depends on the individual.
Some transpeople purposefuly don't follow gender roles, others believe they should be followed, and most just do what they enjoy.
Some transpeople continue to be open about their trans identity/history after they have completed their transition, others go stealth and try to keep their history secret as much as they can, and still others find their own balance between the two.

There are three types of transition; social, legal, and physical. And not all transpeople can or want to physically or legally transition. For instance, a friend of mine just had top surgery (he had a DD chest) and that is the end of his physical transition.

And not all transpeople care about Michfest. Each summer there are less than half a dozen posts relating to Michfest on the three livejournal trans communities I read.
Most of the posts are about legal issues, questions about hormones, coming out, insurance, and help with passing.

It is really impossible to make generalizations about transpeople or our beliefs. Whenever someone posts a generalization on a transforum others post all sorts of exceptions and objections.

PS: The stereotype for transguys I generally see is a butch lesbian who transitions and becomes really sexist; I really don't fit that at all. I'm a queer, geeky transguy and am so flaming I couldn't pass as a straight guy if I tried.

28/1/07 01:54  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Apology accepted, Jack, and I apologize as well. I have a hair trigger temper, probably because I'm in politics and I have to play nicey-nice all the fucking time. It builds up to toxic levels, if you know what I mean.

Piny:Well, what is the difference between that discussion and this one?

This discussion was about:

1) The idea that you are woman qualified.

2) The idea that transgender struggles are not valid, are not fights against real oppression.

3) The idea that transsexuals--transwomen in particular, really--are thieves, appropriators.

What else?


For the record, I didn't say ANY OF THIS and I don't believe ANY OF THESE THINGS.

Sorry I am not up to grad school level on the trans education. I did get extremely furious when Jack said I didn't know who Gwen Araujo was, when I tried to get a news story about her onto a local minority website and newspaper, got in a fight with the guy when he said no, etc. etc. It was a pretty intense thing, and then for him to say that--! It just wasn't true.

Also FTR, Lucky used to hate me, but don't know if she does now or not. Still, I find it weird and amusing to be put in the same category she is. (I don't think she would appreciate that at ALL, LOL.)

Piny, I grew up under Jim Crow. I resent your quote about shutting people up, or rather, I feel it is just as true for you, as for me. And my "fuck you" post was to Jack, not you, and although I didn't initially mind if you thought it was directed to you, I figured I should clarify.

Little Light, I hope we can talk again. I was initially attracted to your blog because of your name, which is why I asked if it was from the hymn. Then, when I got here, got myself all stirred up. If my questions are pedestrian, it still doesn't mean they aren't also honest and INTELLIGENT, even if they are "101." Even if Piny "can't figure out what I want to talk about." The fact is I would like to talk, PERIOD, and I feel that is as good a place to start as any. If you want to set aside a place for the "101" discussion, I will be up for that. Otherwise, I won't intrude.

Have a good sabbath, or hope you did already, or whatever it is you celebrate. Thank you for assuming the best of me, it is why I decided to reply again.

28/1/07 02:06  

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