I was only speechless for a moment.
So, in the face of this whole mess regarding Jessica Valenti's book--I'm not going to bother linking to the lot of it, it's sort of hard to miss and I've mostly said my piece--I come across this comment, from "Layla," in Jill's apologetic post on Feministe:
That's cute. You continue by suggesting that there is no differential of privilege between white women and women of color--we're all Equally Oppressed As Women, which you present as the "as a feminist" position--and any differences can be explained away by class (saying something about yourself, here?) or "culture" (it's the brown men hurting their brown women more? Pray tell.). Saying otherwise is "self-absorbed" whining. Advocating otherwise is expecting everyone else to get "absorbed" in your (pet) (self-absorbed) issues. "Get a fucking grip."
Layla, I don't care what color you are: that's some racist bullshit. Really? Are you seriously saying that the world's systemic treatment of white women and women of color is the same, only affected by economic class? Because last I checked, that's pretty much saying that the world's systemic treatment of white people and people of color is the same, that we're all "equally oppressed or liberated." Maybe you're being sloppy; that's my most charitable guess. The only other explanation is that you're claiming there's no such thing as racism.
Let's let that sink in for a second.
Wait, I'm sorry. Color is only skin deep, right? We can all choose to just be unaffected by it, if we don't identify ourselves by the color of our skin. I mean, it's just that we're buying into this system that it affects us--or, wait, doesn't, since there's no differential of privilege in this world based on skin color. Sorry, got stupid and self-absorbed there for a second.
The rest of us live in a world where we have to deal with the consequences of other people's assumptions about us, treatment of us, and oppression of us based on their perceptions of the color of our skin and the homes of our ancestors, whether we like it or not. We have to live with and work against systems--political, social, economic--biased on those grounds. Sometimes we choose to pay attention to those things, note why they happen, and try and get together to talk about them or make them stop happening. Pretending they don't is a one-way ticket to getting our asses kicked. So yeah--we're "people of color." We're "women of color." A lot of us whiny babies identify that way, in no small part, because it helps us find each other and work together. It's called an "anti-racist movement."
As it so happens, a lot of "as a feminist" types have noticed this, too. They pay attention to things like history, or colonialism, or racism, or anything in front of their noses. And they manage to be good feminists, somehow, even though they acknowledge that there are multiple axes of oppression and they intersect now and then.
Then again, you did just claim that racism doesn't exist. And I can only imagine that--seeing as I've heard the assertions you made come out of white people who don't know better many times, but never, ever out of a person of color--that either you're not really who you say you are, that you pass enough as white never to deal with these things, that you are missing at least four of your senses, or that you are benefitting from such overwhelming privilege along other axes, like the economic one, that you have the luxury of ignoring what the rest of us deal with. I'm not sure which set of conditions is the most flattering for you, but I certainly don't like to call people liars about their self-identified racial background, so that sort of narrows things down.
In this conversation? After this blowup? I can only equate it to the women I know who say, hey, those feminists sure are whiners, because I can't think of any time I had any problems to deal with based on being a woman as opposed to a man. After all, I can get my boyfriend to do just about anything for me, and women have a certain kind of power, too, and I live pretty comfortably, and, and...anyway, I don't know what they're always complaining about. "Sexism" is pretty stupid. Way to be self-absorbed.
How about, instead of telling the rest of us what the world is like for us, sister, you step off. And on your way out? Check your motherfucking privilege.
Jill, you apologize for yourself and your views way too much. You most certainly did not ‘fuck up’ — and I’m saying this as a past critic of Jessica and as a ‘woman of color.’ Which is a stupid term — my color is only skin deep and I don’t define myself by it.I cannot let this go. First, Layla, you invalidate the self-identification of women of color, going so far as to put scare quotes around the term every time it comes up. You're--let me get this straight--a 'woman of color' denying other women's prerogative to identify with or organize around their race, or even to call themselves by such a name--it's "stupid," among other things, because "color is only skin deep."
Jessica is anything but a ‘marginalizer’ — and as a feminist, let me tell you, white women are no more privileged than any others. As far as our biology, our sex, goes, we are all equally oppressed or liberated. If ‘women of color’ are more oppressed, it’s more because of class and culture reasons than by reason of their sex. Feminism is the great equalizer, and frankly, these self-absorbed women of color (and admittedly, I am self-absorbed too, but at least I don’t expect everyone else to be absorbed in my issues as well) need to get a fucking grip and lay off Jessica. One would think Jessica had just single-handedly managed to fuck things up for ‘women of color.’
That's cute. You continue by suggesting that there is no differential of privilege between white women and women of color--we're all Equally Oppressed As Women, which you present as the "as a feminist" position--and any differences can be explained away by class (saying something about yourself, here?) or "culture" (it's the brown men hurting their brown women more? Pray tell.). Saying otherwise is "self-absorbed" whining. Advocating otherwise is expecting everyone else to get "absorbed" in your (pet) (self-absorbed) issues. "Get a fucking grip."
Layla, I don't care what color you are: that's some racist bullshit. Really? Are you seriously saying that the world's systemic treatment of white women and women of color is the same, only affected by economic class? Because last I checked, that's pretty much saying that the world's systemic treatment of white people and people of color is the same, that we're all "equally oppressed or liberated." Maybe you're being sloppy; that's my most charitable guess. The only other explanation is that you're claiming there's no such thing as racism.
Let's let that sink in for a second.
Wait, I'm sorry. Color is only skin deep, right? We can all choose to just be unaffected by it, if we don't identify ourselves by the color of our skin. I mean, it's just that we're buying into this system that it affects us--or, wait, doesn't, since there's no differential of privilege in this world based on skin color. Sorry, got stupid and self-absorbed there for a second.
The rest of us live in a world where we have to deal with the consequences of other people's assumptions about us, treatment of us, and oppression of us based on their perceptions of the color of our skin and the homes of our ancestors, whether we like it or not. We have to live with and work against systems--political, social, economic--biased on those grounds. Sometimes we choose to pay attention to those things, note why they happen, and try and get together to talk about them or make them stop happening. Pretending they don't is a one-way ticket to getting our asses kicked. So yeah--we're "people of color." We're "women of color." A lot of us whiny babies identify that way, in no small part, because it helps us find each other and work together. It's called an "anti-racist movement."
As it so happens, a lot of "as a feminist" types have noticed this, too. They pay attention to things like history, or colonialism, or racism, or anything in front of their noses. And they manage to be good feminists, somehow, even though they acknowledge that there are multiple axes of oppression and they intersect now and then.
Then again, you did just claim that racism doesn't exist. And I can only imagine that--seeing as I've heard the assertions you made come out of white people who don't know better many times, but never, ever out of a person of color--that either you're not really who you say you are, that you pass enough as white never to deal with these things, that you are missing at least four of your senses, or that you are benefitting from such overwhelming privilege along other axes, like the economic one, that you have the luxury of ignoring what the rest of us deal with. I'm not sure which set of conditions is the most flattering for you, but I certainly don't like to call people liars about their self-identified racial background, so that sort of narrows things down.
In this conversation? After this blowup? I can only equate it to the women I know who say, hey, those feminists sure are whiners, because I can't think of any time I had any problems to deal with based on being a woman as opposed to a man. After all, I can get my boyfriend to do just about anything for me, and women have a certain kind of power, too, and I live pretty comfortably, and, and...anyway, I don't know what they're always complaining about. "Sexism" is pretty stupid. Way to be self-absorbed.
How about, instead of telling the rest of us what the world is like for us, sister, you step off. And on your way out? Check your motherfucking privilege.
16 Comments:
I actually wrote a comment on that earlier this morning, in which I also started with "I can't believe nobody has said anything about this yet. Then I erased it because I was too upset and felt like I hadn't done enough reading of this whole FFF controversy or the book itself. Then I read your quote and was like, yeah I should have said something but I'm also glad little light did instead because she has been following and participating in this whole thing! So thank you.
I just read that.
There is some shit I just can't dela with on the lords day
i have not commented here before, but thank you for taking the time to write a lenthy response.
i just saw it a few minutes ago, and quite frankly i'm, well so disappointed to the point of almost speechless. i left a comment that was too short and too nice.
i had high hopes for that thread, and i'm sure there always has to be one, but damn.
Thanks for writing this, little light.
I didn't notice her until I was re-reading through the thread, but jeeze, did all the racist tropes jump out at me then. She sounds like she's of the Dinesh D'Souza school of thought, with a feminist overlay. I'm really happy others on that thread took her to task on her issues.
And hey... she got you writing again, so silver lining!
I can only equate it to the women I know who say, hey, those feminists sure are whiners, because I can't think of any time I had any problems to deal with based on being a woman as opposed to a man.
Yeah. In my conversations with them, those women can't think of any problems because they've repressed or excused them almost to the point of amnesia, and I can only get so frustrated because you do what you gotta do to survive sometimes. But when pressed--"Oh, okay, there was that one time when I guess maybe." That sort of thing.
The woman Layla reminded me of was Baldilocks, a black female conservative blogger. Except Baldilocks would have stopped short of Layla, because it really does looko as though Layla is making the argument that racism doesn't exist, and Baldilocks wouldn't say that. She minimized the problem, but not to this extent.
Thanks for posting this. I ran across that comment, but couldn't come up with anything more coherent than "Wait, WHAT? Did you really just say that?"
I tend to take for granted that in feminist discussions I can draw parallels to racism as an understood Bad Thing and everyone will be on the same page as I am. Things like this remind me not to be so idealistic about my fellows and their states of enlightenment
Yeah, it was a pretty appalling comment. I mean, shit - I identify as Hispanic, but I present as white and basically am white for all reasonable purposes. Just because I don't deal with racism in my day-to-day certainly doesn't mean that it doesn't exist; all it means is that I'm damn lucky. Privileged, even.
I'm with you on thinking there's a strong possibility Layla isn't actually who "she" says she is.
Hell yes. This whole affair is just making me want to beat my head against my desk, and if I wasn't trying to get papers written and trying to organise against my university administrators wanting shut down liberal arts, I'd be saying a lot more. And I should be saying more, because this shit is just crazy. But thank you, and right on.
Good grief.
I love ya, little light. I just love ya.
yipes.
in her case it sounds like not so much conservatism as she's embraced the radical feminist position that All Wimmins R United Equally in male oppression, or something.
but: yeah. yeesh.
If 'women of color' are more oppressed, it's more because of class and culture reasons than by reason of their sex.
I can't see any way that dividing up reasons like that makes sense, unless one believes that the reasons women are oppressed for their sex aren't also "class and culture reasons" -- that is, unless one believes that there is something inherent in womanhood that causes oppression.
And I sort of thought most feminists didn't believe in the "weaker sex" nonsense....
unless one believes that there is something inherent in womanhood that causes oppression.
Not inherent in womanhood, but yes, that is the radical feminist POV: Class Woman is oppressed by Class Man, that is the primary oppression,
which is what it sounds like she might be coming from.
iow: -women- don't oppress other women, Guess Who does.
I'm totally copying Donna with the "I love you!"
Gotta say that this:
"...that you are missing at least four of your senses,,,"
had me rolling on the floor. As always, your writing is awesome.
I honestly can't believe that a feminist would say that, call me naive but I would have suspected that given enough understanding of the ways which sexism works in the society systematic and sometimes hidden would could most pretty quickly to realise that racism might work in much the same ways? no?
Appartently not.
I'm late, but it takes me awhile to catch up with everything :)
Layla, no offense, sounds like she might be from 1945 and in the throes of the racist 2nd wave who all but ignored the "intersectionality" that Feministing and FFF just love so much.
I have nothing to say, except I admire your patience and perseverance to respond to such mindless ignorance. I'm almost embarrassed for her.
Almost.
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