I wonder what would have been considered "kindness."
So, now and then there's some confusion about what us-all feminist bloggers mean by Nice Guy(tm), a term that's used in a derogatory fashion.
We mean this.
Any questions?
...okay, I've got one. I know there's guys who read this blog, as well as people who've, at some point, lived as men. Were you ever, even for a brief, stupid, youthful period, a Nice Guy(tm)? How did you get over it? What do you think would work toward nipping this stuff in the bud when it comes to teaching our young men not to slip down that slope?
EDITED TO ADD:
The link appears to be broken, as Craigslist took the post down. Here's the text of the ad, found in Missed Connections m4w, for your perusal:
We mean this.
Any questions?
...okay, I've got one. I know there's guys who read this blog, as well as people who've, at some point, lived as men. Were you ever, even for a brief, stupid, youthful period, a Nice Guy(tm)? How did you get over it? What do you think would work toward nipping this stuff in the bud when it comes to teaching our young men not to slip down that slope?
EDITED TO ADD:
The link appears to be broken, as Craigslist took the post down. Here's the text of the ad, found in Missed Connections m4w, for your perusal:
Shelly,
Your Guardian Angel hopes you were able to get into your cottage safely. You really were messed up last night. This nice guy dreams of one night with a hot lady like you. It is really a shame you don't treat the one who rescues you with kindness. Just remember this next time you are treated like dirt and get abandoned on the street like a drunk bum in old town. You are lucky to be alive. I saved your life. I hope the hang over is not too bad. Would you treat a person who saved your life that way again? I hope not. Just goes to show you nice guys finish last. A bad boy would have had you begging and known the pleasures of a hot lady.
Greg
Labels: feminism
posted by little light | 4:31 PM
19 Comments:
I have met so many guys like this who seem to think that because they are overbearingly solicitous, they are Nice Guys (tm). Now, of course I have known "nice guys" in the sense of "a genuinely nice man who gets the short end of the stick when it comes to dating," but that is not at all the same thing as a Nice Guy with the capitalization!
Glad that you posted this; it seems like many people are confused as to how there is a definite line between the two.
As for nipping it in the bud, the main problem with Nice Guys is that they assume that women need to be taken care of. There's a paternalism that's just not okay in their attitude. I think the best way to nip it in the bud is to make sure that if they're paternalistic, they're equally paternalistic to women and men -- then, they're not Nice Guys, they're just overbearing. Which, I guess, is some people's personality.
Well, I hope no one else in the world is quite like that douche. "A bad boy would have had you begging and known the pleasures of a hot lady." What the hell? We talkin' about the pleasures of teh sex or the pleasures of raping a woman too drunk to stand? And "like a drunk bum in old town"? Is "old town" an actual part of Portland, or is that just supposed to make it burn all the more?
Seriously, if by nice guys you mean something like this, resentful and ostentatious "guardian angel" behavior trying to failing to mask a venomous hatred and a desire to rape, then, no, I've never been that. I have had some of the same perceptions as nice guys apparently do--that, despite my best (or maybe not quite best, but earnest) efforts, women seemed to prefer assholes and boors, and that this seemed grotesque and unfair. I just assumed it was somehow my fault. Also, I'm not sure I ever really believed that; it may be true in a few cases, but really isn't a rule, I don't think. I have been frustrated with women, who seem to make no sense at all, but I've never been especially inclined to blame them for that, since none of the external world makes any sense to me (my internal world really doesn't either, but I can successfully pretend it does close to half the time).
Like (I assume) everyone, I often think my manifest virtues are being ignored or insufficiently appreciated by others, that my many good deeds are going unnoticed, etc., and romantic entanglements (or lack thereof) tend to exacerbate these tendencies. But deciding that any of this means that this or that woman is an evil and ungrateful (I'm also, incidentally, not a huge fan of the ingratitude card) wench who deserves to be hurt and punished just isn't something I tend to do (whereas about 80% of the men I encounter I think need to be hurt and punished). So, to actually answer your question, no, I don't think I've ever actually been a Nice Guy (tm).
The link is dead. Did anyone save the content?
I'm sure I've been a Nice Guy [tm] in the past. I think the basic characteristic is that you expect to be rewarded for what you should have been doing in the first place. It's a common enough attitude in everyone; like the idea of a model citizen being someone who doesn't actively break the law.
It's the starting point, not the end. And you're not entitled to anything.
It's the "you're not entitled to anything" that has always, in my experience, been the sticking point for the Nice Guy.
The ones I've actually talked with (generally whining on the internet about how they can't get a girlfriend) seem to have this notion of Woman As Vending Machine / Arcade Game. If they just figure out which buttons to push, then Woman will Put Out. And they're pushing the buttons that they're supposed to, but Woman is not lighting up the right little "Score!" buttons. That asshole over there is pushing buttons and lighting the whole system up! Damnit, this Woman is broken! They tried up-down-up-down-left-right-left-right-B-A-stat, too, did someone give them the wrong cheat code? The last woman said that she liked this, why doesn't this woman respond to it?
None of the Nice Guys I've ever tried to talk to seem capable of believing that women aren't issued with a standard cheat code that will open them up to whoever gets the button sequence right. And the cheat code is Their Right, Damnit. The woman is incidental.
damn, it's been removed. i take it it was a pip.
Also, it turns out that women do not all think exactly alike. Some of them even have problems of their own.
How about that?
Yeah, it's all about the entitlement, the expectation that you deserve sex and that therefore someone else has to give it to you, and if that's not happening, then it's someone else's fault and goddamit it's probably that girl and wah wah wah wah wah.
I mean, once upon a time, back when I was a teenager, I was probably perceived by many as a nice guy of some sort or another, an awkward, skinny, androgynous kid prone to embarassed confession of feelings and asking dates whether it was OK to hold hands, can I touch you here, how about here, I'd like to kiss you now. The whole classic Antioch college manual, before I even graduated from high school! I got made fun of for it by my friends and dates alike, but harmlessly. But no, I never had any kind of expectation or sense that I was entitled to, or even deserved, some kind of sexual activity or reciprocity of interest from anyone.
Quite the contrary, if someone I'm into is also interested in me? If I'm hot for you and whoa, you're hot for me too, and whoa whoa, there's some mutual hotness? It's kind of like, what? Who, me? (Looks behind herself.) Me? You... you want to make out with me? Fucking miracle, man. Not expected at all, and kind of the better for being a surprise. How much better is it to live in a world where mutual attraction is a shooting star occurrence of wonder and excitement and surprise, instead of one where you're like "damn, all right, I finally got this machine to give me my candy bar like it should have all along, ugh." Who lives in that world? Only assholes.
And lest arguments about "male sex drive" and "oh you've got it easy" start cropping up here or elsewhere... for the record I had a FIVE YEAR dry spell once, while under the influence of testosterone, and did not get all bitchy and entitled about it. Well maybe I did on account of feeling like I was too short and all the tall people got play. But that's different ;)
...Ah, yes, with the underlying message being "I did you such a great kindness by not date-raping you when I had the chance. Now you're eternally indebted to me." Joy.
SPORFLE! at "Woman As Vending Machine / Arcade Game."
What a prince among men. How can he still be single? Form an orderly queue, ladies!
How very generous of him to refrain from raping her out of the goodness of his heart. Is it only me who feels the woman would have been much safer getting home on her own? Or by hitching a lift with a biker gang?
I'm not surprised she got drunk. If I were spending an evening with an asshole like that, I'd be knocking back the martinis too.
holly said:
"How much better is it to live in a world where mutual attraction is a shooting star occurrence of wonder and excitement and surprise"
I loved that.
Anyway, nice guy-ness...I feel like that "nice" label is also claimed by men who don't realize that being nice, or kind, or good, or whatever you want to call it, is not synonymous with being a doormat. I don't know men or women, straight or gay or anywhere on the spectrum, who find doormats hot.
I also don't have a lot of first hand experience with women who "love" assholes. And I have always been friends with lots of women, so it's hard for me not to assume that if it were a rampant phenomenon, I'd have seen it running rampant. What I *have* seen are men and women who don't know their own worth and who therefore tolerate asshole behavior from people who make them feel good and then withdraw, make them feel good and then withdraw. It's the comfort and validation of getting that person to display affection again that is the hook, not the meanness itself. I say that as someone who has dated people who were not good eggs and have talked to other people about it, not just making pop psychology proclamations.
5 year dry spell? i was a virgin until i was 30, and then married the woman. then i had a 10 year "dry spell" after my son was born. i've always seen sex as a mutual kind of thing. when it's not mutual, well, i think they call that masterbation. at least that's how i saw it.
regarding how to prevent the above mentioned assholic behavior, how about a required course in school, perhaps entitled "preventing assholiness", since we apparently can't trust parents to prevent raising assholes such as these.
Dw3t-Hthr, that's priceless! I'm gonna have to post a link to that!
Ravenhub is a lower case nice guy who was dumped by a woman because he was "too nice". The problem with people who don't demand entitlement is that both partners have to be grown ups and genuinely respect each other. Something Greg wouldn't be familiar with.
Cant say I was ever that sort.
I was more the sort that would take her home and not even think about it.
THen again, I was also the sort that had to be struck hard over the head to make it known someone was intersted in me, lol
Actually, I had never dated before I transitioned to female. I didn’t want to be intimate with others while society was under the impression that I was a boy. So, I can’t say I engaged in that kind of behavior. If I had dated during that time, I couldn’t imagine that I would have been such a jerk.
I was a virgin until shortly before I turned 30, about four years after I had bottom surgery. So, that was my “dry spell.” I was with a guy at the time. I had never really expected to wind up with a guy during my first relationship, but life is sometimes funny like that.
Whoops. I screwed up the math. Actually, I was a virgin until I was 30. Looks like we have something in common, Nexy.
I think by "kindness" he just meant a sincere thank-you and maybe a good restaurant recommendation.
little light, is it ok if I meme you? I'm sorely regretting missing the big blogger lunch and not getting to meet you...some way to try to make it up to you, huh? ;D
I hope to god I've never been that bad, but we don't get to make those calls. I'm sure you'd find any number of people who'd call me a selfish asshole, because I, like everybody else in this world, have been one at times.
In any case, as a parent, teaching about this "nice guy" thing pretty much starts with, "Don't be a dick." Then, when it comes to cases, that gets articulated as the simple fact that people should be treated as people, and no one owes you sex, or love, or even friendship. As people, we are obligated to treat each other with respect, regardless of whether it's reciprocated, much less rewarded. (I think thats what ahimsa comes down to.)
Oh, and patience, respect, and the ability to respond genuinely to another human being should be the basis of your sexuality, regardless of the exact forms it takes.
Hope it works. For his sake, more than anything else.
I stopped being a Nice Guy(tm) when I finally learned that it takes two masochists to tango.
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